Hart House Stories

We tell ourselves stories in order to live.

Joan Didion, writer and journalist

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The medium of podcasting and the personal nature of it, the relationship you build with your listeners and the relationship they have with you—they could be just sitting there, chuckling and listening...there's nothing like that.

Marc Maron, Host of WTF with Marc Maron

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  Planting Seeds

  For our first show of 2021, we are inviting you into our last roundtable conversation of 2020

  Read Transcript

  Braeden
  Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting on CiUT  89.5 FM at Hart House where we are taking up space on Dish with One Spoon Territory. My name is Braeden, and I'll be hosting the show today. Welcome to 2021 everyone. I hope this finds you somewhere safe and taking good care. A few weeks ago, we had a virtual meeting with our team of co-producers for the show. And before the pandemic we used to meet up in the studio once a week for these really beautiful and open-hearted roundtable discussions. I've been missing deeply sharing that space with everyone in person this past year. So for our last gathering of the year, we created a virtual Roundtable. So for this first show of 2021, we'll be bringing you into our last conversation of 2020 in the West Meeting Room. So grab a cup of tea and come join us. Joining me in the studio - Do you want to introduce yourself?

  Sabrina
  Hi. I'm Sabrina. I feel like I'm a tired voice. [laughs] You might have heard me a lot. But yeah, I'm Sabrina.

  Rebekah  

  I can go next. I'm Rebekah. I'm not as tired. But um, yeah, I'll probably take a nap after this.

  Janine
  Hi, I'm Janine. I'm really tired, too, but on a sugar rush. So god helped me today. Thank you. (laughs)

  Melissa
  Hi, I'm Melissa. I'm new to the party. So I am very excited to be here, but also very tired.

  Braeden
  Well, thank you all, this tired bunch,  for joining me in our zoom studio today. Um, just wanted to, Yeah, just have some casual conversation to round out the year. But I guess, I did have in mind to maybe start with Sabrina because we were talking a bit about snail mail. And I know you put together a package of letters for your business. And I just wanted to ask like, Yeah, what were like - what sort of inspired that and what is maybe drawing you to like this slower form of connection and communication?

  Sabrina
  Yeah, I feel like this is like a mix of business strategy and also like genuine inspiration. I created a product called Letters from the Tarot, which isn't super unique by any means. Like a lot of people do this in different iterations. But basically what that was, is like me going to my tarot cards and pulling just in general, like a general message, and then taking a picture of it in like a Polaroid style thing. So that that person had like a physical representation of the card, and then writing out their reading, like on proper letter paper, and like putting it in an envelope and making it like a super analog process. Because I usually do readings like online. One of the reasons for this is because the holiday seasons are coming up, and I wanted a physical product that would be like really good to put in some stocking stuffers. So that's like the business perspective. But also, I feel like there's a lot of screen fatigue going on. I was like really excited for the prospect of, there's like a restaurant down the street from where I live. And they're like, super, like spooky and like gamer-esque kind of thing. And I was like really excited to like proposition them over at Halloween and being like, I'd love to like sit in a corner booth in your restaurant and just like do live readings. And I'm like, I just get paid with tips and you can like bring people in or whatever. 

  And then I can't do that because of the pandemic and everything. So it's like, how can I reproduce that kind of physical experience and like bringing those messages that way. And it was really nice, because as we were discussing earlier, I'm notorious for over-committing myself, always. And as I was putting it together, I kind of, I got a wholesale order for them. So someone like bought a bunch of them to put in their store. And at that point, it was like at the point of no return I had to like buy all the materials and I was like, Hey, we're doing this. And midway through I was just like, this is too big like I can't do this. I've never done this before what if everything I do is gonna let this store down. I already bought all this stuff like this is terrible. I had like 18 assignments due and I was like freaking. And then I finally got to the point where I was just sitting down and like writing the letters. And it was like, super nice and meditative. And then I got like washi tape and  stickers and I like did them all up. And then I put them in the envelope. And then I did a wax seal, which is like  much easier than I thought it was going to be. So I learned a new skill and just going through all the process and like putting all the letters together, it was a great way to disconnect from my screen. It was a great way that I hope I can intuitively connect with just like people in the community in a way where they kind of have like a physical reminder of that reading. But also that like allows them to disconnect from their screens for a little bit as well. And maybe do some intuitive reflective work, just kind of like on their own with actual paper. And it was nice to write things. So yeah, that's kind of like the story of that. In a nutshell. I hope I answered your question.

  Braeden  

  Yeah, no, that's nice. It touched on it really beautifully. And yeah, you've got, you definitely inspired me to like, bust out the wax seal that's been in my drawer that I just like impulse bought at like a stationery store, and then never did anything with. So I think this is the season for snail mail. And that's why, yeah, I really wanted to connect with you about that.

  Sabrina
  Oh, another point real quick, too, was that the other inspiration for this too, was with electronic readings, it's very much just me. But the sheer amount of supplies that I needed to do this required me to go out and buy things. And this was also an avenue for me to reinvest into the community. So all of my like materials are from, or not all of them completely all of them, but the majority of the materials, I made sure to look and try to source as much as I can from like local Toronto businesses. So most of my stationery stuff is from this place called Wonder Pens, which is like, in the West. And they're owned by the like this couple, who I believe are also people of colors, so I'm also trying to like uplift like BIPOC and other marginalized communities. And then I got like one of the cameras that I was using from this place called Henry's, which is like an independent photography shop in Toronto. So that was another thing too, was like a physical product means that I could get physical tools and buy them from other small businesses.

  Braeden
  That's very cool. Thank you for sharing. Maybe in keeping with thinking about like analog and slowing down and time away from screens, and just sort of like, I don't know, connecting with tactile things in a meditative way - I think, Melissa, I'll toss it over to you. I noticed that there's a lot of foccacia popping up on your Instagram feed if you don't mind me sharing that? I wondered if you had any reflections on that that you could share with us?

  Melissa
  Yeah, you would be right, we have been making like two foccacia a week, which is like not good, because that means we've also been eating two a week. And I mean it's, I guess it could be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. But yeah, I'm not sure if anybody is familiar with Claire Saffitz. She used to work at Bon Appetit. And now she's doing her own independent thing, which is awesome. But yeah, we took her focaccia recipe that she posted kind of as like the breakout on her YouTube channel. And we, my partner and I, aren't super big breadmakers, which actually thinking about that is a lie, because I do have a sourdough starter in my fridge. But yeah, we thought we'd give foccacia a shot, because in all honesty, I don't think I had  ever even eaten it before. So I was like, might as well just make it and try it all at once. And it is very therapeutic. 

  In terms of slowing down, I mean, obviously, you do need to rely on the screen a little bit to like, watch the video and take your notes and stuff. But once you're there, it's a lot of waiting, which I'm not very good at. I'm not a super patient person. So I think that it's a good exercise for me to make things like bread where you are forced to wait. And, you know, if you don't wait and you get impatient, bad things can happen to your bread. So it's a really good exercise for me. And if you ever get a chance to make focaccia when you get to the dimpling part, where you have to like press down the dough, you will never feel anything like that in your life. It is amazing. And the better, like the more you  you let your dough proof and like the bigger it is. We also realized the first time we made it, we didn't put enough water. So the second time we made it, it was that much fluffier. And even that, like even if you don't eat bread, I would make the bread and dimple it so that you can feel it and then gift it to somebody because it's amazing. So yeah, that's kind of a way that we've been, I guess turning off and kind of spending some nice time together. Which is great. So yeah, we've been eating a lot of bread, you would be right in saying that my feed is all foccacia now.

  Braeden
  No, it's wonderful. I really enjoyed it. So, yeah. What about you, Rebekah? Janine? Are there like some tactile analog screens-free activities that you're doing? Or maybe, or maybe thinking about doing in these coming weeks of hopefully getting some some rest and some time away from work?

  Rebekah
  Yeah, absolutely. When you mentioned snail mail earlier, like with Sabrina, I was thinking like, over this entire summer, I actually also did a snail mail campaign where, because I was back home with my parents after having left Canada because the lockdown, I spent a lot of time like writing letters back and forth, like people I hadn't talked to in a really long time. I wrote letters to my cousins. I wrote letters to like classmates from like university and classmates from high school. And it was just like, really therapeutic. And that act of waiting. Like Melissa said, I'm not a very patient person. So that idea of like having to be patient for like the mail to be delivered. And then, you know, checking the mailbox every day thinking like, Oh, is it here? Like is the letter here? I don't know. I felt like SpongeBob in that moment, just like constantly waiting by the mailbox, just like for something to come. And then I also was staring at the stack of cards that I have sitting next to my computer on my desk that I bought on a whim because I was like, You know what, maybe we'll do like holiday gift - like holiday card ideas, like send out to friends and family. Um, haven't gotten around to that, because this semester has not permitted me to do so yet. 

  But I think that that's something that I'm going to try to pick back up again. Because like Sabrina said, it's like really therapeutic for me to like, write to people, and then the idea of waiting. I just love getting something in the mailbox. Like, I think that's really fun. So, yeah, and another tactile thing. I'm just like constantly writing in my journal. Like, I always joke that like, my journal is going to be turned to a memoir one day. But like, I think I'm like actually serious about it. Now at this point, I'm not writing for other people still, but like, I'm very much thinking in that historian brain and like wanting to document like my life during this pandemic over the course of this year, because I've learned a lot about myself. I grew a lot, challenged myself a lot. And so I think it'll be a really cool way to like, look back, like during this time especially because this - time is fake - But like, especially looking back over this year, like, time has gone by so fast and so slow at the same time. Like February is right around the corner. And I'm thinking like the last time I went out and had fun was for my birthday, which was in February of last year. And that's like two months away. So not really sure what happened between now and then but it just keeps going by so I think a journal will be a really cool way to like, share that with my future family. You know, like you're learning about 2020 in school. Well, let me crack open a journal for you. And I'll tell you about what was actually happening. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

  Braeden
  Thank you for sharing. Janine, what about you?

  Janine
  I feel like, during this time, I've gotten a lot more in touch with my creative side. Like the past month, I think I was super stressed. And one way that I kind of, like kind of took care of myself because I don't want to say self care. I want to just be like, Yeah, I was not doing well and it wasn't like a skincare routine. It was like, I felt like I was losing my voice for a bit because I was working like so hard on things to please other people that I kind of lost my creative voice a bit. And so I created this photo essay and I interviewed a lot of people around me about their experiences and about their lives about different themes. And that made me really happy. And I think that going back to my journalistic side, that's a lot more of just listening to people and talking about things in a more abstract way has made me feel more myself. So I want to do more of that. I want to explore, like photo essay type projects. Obviously podcasts, but even like just poetry. I feel like sometimes we work, work, work, work work, and we forget that our internal voice is still there. And I want to do projects that are true to myself as well. Because sometimes I get sucked into this idea that um you know, I have to be the perfect package of like a 4.0 student and a perfect daughter, a perfect sister, a perfect whatever. And I end up losing myself in the process. So doing projects like this really make me happy.

  Braeden
  That's it. That's all my questions. [laughs]

  Rebekah
  I was gonna say like, Braeden, what about you? Have you been linked in with any like tactile things?

  Braeden
  I feel like I did kind of get into a flow with  cooking. I feel like the past couple weeks, there is something about like - I feel like it's so boring - but just like chopping vegetables. Like I can just turn my brain off. And not like, I mean - I'm sure all of you  wrestle with this - like work is showing up in your dreams and like, it just completely hijacks your brain space. And, and I find like when I'm cooking, it's just the smells and I'm chopping, you know, 1000 carrots. What's really nice, I think, that's helped me get into this ritual - I get a Good Food Box from Foodshare, which is a really amazing organization, every Thursday. And it's just like a signal to my brain  that I have to like - it kinda reminds me - I used to work, I've worked in a lot of restaurants as a cook. And, you know, you have your delivery days. And you just, like you just cook, or cut, chop, like 1000 things of everything. And so, yeah, every Thursday, I just  chop a ton of vegetables. And I can just -  it just feels like the only time that my brain shuts off from the things that I'm stressed about, or like my to do lists. And I'm just, I feel like fully present. And then I get a great nourishing meal out of it. So yeah, I feel like I'm actually also doing something nice for myself that is nourishing and generative. So yeah, that's been really nice. Thanks for asking.

  Janine
  I love that you guys love doing things with your hands. And like, that's a form of therapy. For me, it's the opposite. Like I hate, like cutting things up for cooking and stuff like that. Like for me, I find a lot of comfort in stillness. And I feel like, granted I've burned down the kitchen once before or almost burnt down the kitchen trying to cook. So there's some bad experiences with that. But like, generally, I've just been having a lot of walks in trails and just forcing myself to, you know, just sit and journal and write or like, think of the first thing that pops into my mind. And I feel like, I don't know, I really love that you guys - like we each have different ways of expressing ourselves and different coping mechanisms. And I think, Melissa, it's funny that you mentioned foccacia, because I only learned about that yesterday. I didn't know what it was until yesterday. But my mom is also a bit big on making breads. I just for some reason, I am too scared to try it myself. I think if I tried it myself, it would go terribly bad.

  Melissa
  You should definitely try it, I promise you, it will not go poorly. My only expert tip for you is don't forget the salt because I forgot the salt yesterday. And it does make a difference. But you should try it. It's really easy. And I can send you the video. And if it doesn't work out, then just slather some dip on it and dip it in balsamic vinegar. And it'll be fine. You can't mess it up, I promise.

  Sabrina
  I think, too, there's like salience. And like, say your thing, like just try it. And like see, especially when it comes to bread. And I know especially in the everyone like being at home people are reconnecting to like growing plants. And like everyone's like baking bread and like doing these very kind of like slower tasks that take time. And I think something that I keep thinking about too is this post I saw an Instagram, which is not unique to that person, because I think it's just a general thing. But like "the day you plant the seed is not the day that you like harvest the fruit." And I think too, like we're talking about, like work showing up in our dreams and like having these expectations. And I think moving back to these things where it's like especially when it comes more to plants, I'm thinking more to plants, the philosophy like your breathing life into something that's like also its own thing. And sometimes things don't work out. And like that's okay. And even with bread, like honestly, sometimes the breads rising, and then it collapses. Like, it doesn't want to hold all that air in you know what I mean? Like I don't - I mean I kind of subscribe to a form of animism. So I think there's life in all things. But I do think the life in bread is different than the life in like plants. But I think that's just like more of a testament to like, not everything can be controlled, or like confined into like a small test, test-case box. And sometimes things just kind of like, do run their course. And it's up to you to just kind of adapt and accept that and like wait and see how things crop up in time. I think there's virtue in that as well. Like learning to like live more slowly and like see what happens.

  Rebekah
  Yeah, that's actually a really cool idea that like something that I've been trying to reflect more about recently is, you know, trying to like - this year has thrown so many curveballs in like many, like many ways than one and so the idea of like not really knowing what the final product will be like, and kind of like you said, Sabrina, like, you're planting seeds and like, you have to wait for them to grow and like see what kind of options and stuff kind of come out of that. And I'm in the process of like applying to different programs right now. And everyone's like, well, what's your number one choice? Like, where do you want to go? And I'm like, you know what, I'm just, I'm just planting seeds right now. Like, I'm just trying to, like, see and wait and not trying to get my hopes up too high. And just trying to like, become more comfortable with like, living in this ambiguous like, not being able to plan my life out for like, five or 10 years kind of thing. 

  Um, over the summer, I actually like bought a stick and poke tattoo kit. As like a whim like, everyone's out here making foccacia or like making sourdough and was like, You know what, I'm gonna learn how to tattoo myself. So why not? Um, that was my quarantine project. And I did this one tattoo. It's like, what is it called, like a crystal ball. I tattooed it on my ankle. And I just really like the idea of a crystal ball. Because you're always trying to like, see into the future. Like, you're always trying to look and like, figure out what's coming next. And that was my entire shtick over the summer. I was like, what's coming next? When am I coming back to Toronto? What am I doing after this year? Like, how - what is life going to look like? And things were changing every two weeks. Like you couldn't really plan for it into the future. Like you had no idea what was going to happen next month. And even now my mom's like, when am I gonna see you? I'm like, You know what? I can only think till the end of December. I can't think past that right now. But yeah, looking at that crystal ball literally reminds me like, okay, you're always trying to look and see what's coming next. And like, of course, it's good to have a plan. I'm a planner. Like, it is what it is. But I'm just trying to like, remind myself like, it's fine. If you don't know exactly what's happening next. You are not supposed to that's like the really cool thing about like, this whole life thing or whatever. Yeah, I don't know, I think crystal balls are a really cool way to monument that and I got a really sick tattoo out of it. So yeah.

  Janine
  I kind of feel the same way. Like, I feel like I've, I've always like, wanted to control everything in my life and wanted my plans to work out a certain way. And even though I'm really young, I still feel like, that's been a part of me, since I was really young. I've always kind of wanted to be an overachiever. Never really was, but always had that intention. And I feel like, as we're graduating next year, next semester, I feel this sense of like calmness knowing that I don't know what my next step is. And I like that. I like that, you know, I'm going  into this new chapter of my life, this new phase, where I'm not sure what's gonna come of it. But what I do know is I kind of - it's kind of cheesy - but I want to live a value-based life as opposed to like a goal-oriented life. And that doesn't mean that I don't have ambitions, but I am trying to focus more on the day to day values that I instill in my work and my friendships and my character, as opposed to like, you know, associating my worth with a certain career or a certain job, or, you know, whatever it is. I just, I'm kind of tired of like, putting my worth up against, like, my ambitions. And it's good to have a healthy balance with that. But right now, I want to take a break from that next year. And that's my, like, seed that I'm trying to grow next year. Yeah,

  Sabrina
  I feel like what you're talking about when it comes to like, future planning is really salient. I was literally in my apartment yesterday talking to Max like, Okay, so we'll  graduate in June, and then we can like rent our new place, and we're going to foster dogs for a year and then we're gonna foster children. And I'm like, trying to figure out like my three year plan, because, you know, I came into it thinking that I was going to go to law school, which is not completely off the table, but I'm definitely not going to go right after graduation. And this is gonna be like, the first time in my life where like, I'm not - I'm like ending that - I'm ending a year, but I'm not knowing that I'm going to go into another year, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have that structure of school telling me like, where you're going to be and like, what you need to read and what you need to do, and it's a full time thing. And I was ready to like, until 24, just like have that structure. And then I got into this audio thing. And then I was like, I'm not gonna go through the torture that is professional school. 

  Now it's like, literally, I turned to my partner and I was like, I just don't -  I'm, it's just hitting me that I need to figure out like, what am I going to do for the rest of the entirety of my life? Like starting in May, it's just going to be - like I'm not taking summer classes to get somewhere else. I'm not in pursuit of a degree or any sort of like outside metric of like something that like someone else deemed I need to get or like to get to something. I just can, I don't know, I can like move somewhere if I want to. I can like try buy a house. I can't buy a house. But like, theoretically, I could buy a house if I had the means, you know what I mean? Like, if we were in a different world, I could buy a van and like, go live in the woods somewhere. Like, I'm just like, freaking out. So yeah, I think I need to plant some seeds, but then like, let them grow. And stop trying to like envision what the life, what my life would be like having those fruits yet when I don't even know what seeds I'm planting.

  Melissa
  I think that's such like, everybody's kind of echoed the same sentiments that like, you know, we all kind of have an idea. And then the pandemic had other ideas. And now nobody really knows what's happening. And obviously, nobody wants to be in a pandemic. But I think something that has come out of this is like, it's a very humbling experience for a lot of people. But I think especially for students, and especially for students who are, you know, like, everybody's kind of set already. Like, they have goals in mind. And they have a schedule, and they have a life plan and whatever. And the pandemic came around and was like, actually, none of that is on the table anymore. And, like, obviously, that's distressing. And a lot of people who have, you know, mental health issues are really struggling right now. And like there are a lot of negatives. But I think that the one thing that it's really teaching people is you, you can't know what's happening. And I think that that's okay. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like I also graduate this year from, in April, from grad school. Which is crazy. So we're not going to talk about that. 

  But in general, like, there's just so much up in the air right now. And I think that, I don't know. I think that it's kind of healthy, especially for folks like myself who are really type A and really planners and organized and whatever. Like you don't know what's happening. And that's okay. And nobody else knows what's happening, either. So I think that it's been sort of, like the patience that is needed to make bread. I think that the patience that's needed now, too, is something that maybe nobody asked for, but maybe some people needed. I don't know. Yeah, I struggle a lot too with wondering what to do after because I haven't not been in school since I was like a kid. So I don't know, that's a lot of pressure. But I think that what you guys have said about like, just planting seeds where you can and figuring out which ones are going to grow and blossom and which ones aren't, like that's all right. And I think that's just part of the experience. So yeah, I don't know, just everything that you guys said was really nice. And I think that it's true that everybody has been forced to slow down, which has been tough, but I don't know, maybe unnecessary toughness for a lot of us. So it's gonna be interesting to see what happens when our seeds start to grow wherever we've planted them.

  Janine
  And I don't know if you guys also feel this, but I have depended on other people's validation for a really long time with my work and what I want to do. And culturally, you just feel like, you know, it's a reflection of not just yourself, but your family, your parents. Like they've invested in you your whole life and stuff like that. So I I kind of had to let go of that pressure of I'm trying to impress other people, because I have to choose between, you know, being true to myself doing work I'm passionate about and being okay with uncertainty, and put other people's opinions of me aside and not give them the weight that they once had on the way I think of myself. And so, yeah, I just wanted to also add that.

  Braeden
  Yeah, I'll jump in as, as someone who's sort of like on the other side of, of having gone through school, and then, you know, it feels like a long time since I was in school. But yeah, Janine I think that was like the biggest transition of - I remember, my first actually, my first job after school was cooking, was as a cook in a kitchen. And it was like, I had to retrain my brain. I didn't realize how institutionalized my brain had become where I would like, you know, I would like make something or prep something and be like, okay, but like, what's my grade on this? Like, how did I perform? Like, what's the bell curve on this like creme brulee I made? Like I was so desperate for this like feedback or like, you know, or how I'm doing or - and it was like it was a real, it kind of felt like a brick wall of a reality check of like, Oh, I actually need to source this from myself. And I can't just like move through the world trying to like mine this like performance based review from people, because that's not real life. Like it was, it was a really trying experience. Like going, getting out into the working world and also just as like, yeah, listening to all of you talk about like, what's next - like, I mean, you're just gonna live lifetimes. Like with each year that passes you're going to work so many jobs. You're going to go so many places. You're going to meet so many people that like before you know it, when you look back at the past couple years - when I look back at the past 5 years, 10 years, since I've been out of school, like I can't even list the number of different jobs I've worked in. It's just all just sort of snowballed one, one from the other. So yeah, I'm really excited at like the blank canvas that sort of lays ahead for all of you. And, yeah, I'm excited to like, keep in touch, you know, throughout all of that, to see where all of you are, are traveling and doing and creating.

  Rebekah
  That's actually interesting, because it reminds me of an article that I read from the New Yorker yesterday. The article was about, like, if you could see other iterations of your life, like, depending on the choices and stuff that you made. And I love that concept. Like, I think that, you know, a bunch of sci fi movies kind of do that. But my favorite movie is called Mr. Nobody with Jared Leto, where he lives like three different lifetimes because he never makes a choice. And so at the end of his life, when someone's like interviewing him, like, Oh, so what was your life, like? He recounts, like, all of these different lifetimes that he lived because in his mind he never made a choice and actually lived all those different realities. It's a really trippy movie and I highly recommend if you get a chance to watch it. But the article was really fascinating, because, you know, this like concept of like, oh what would my life be if I made this choice? Or if I did this thing, if I did that thing? Like, for people who constantly live in that framework, you know, like, what if, what if? what if? what if? It can be like really overwhelming. Whereas like, some people kind of wrestle with that "what if" idea, and they're like, Okay, cool. That's a fun thought experiment. Now, let's get back to like, you know, regular life. I don't know. I don't know if anyone else like in this call does that but I also think about like the movie Meet the Robinsons, and how like, he built a time machine where he could have like seen what his life - like there's different alternate realities. I think alternate realities are really cool. But I sometimes wonder like what my life would have looked like if I had made different choices. But not trying to dwell on that. So I'll just toss it out there.

  Sabrina
  Yeah, my main like philosophical stream is ethics. Not that they stream you in philosophy in U of T. It's just what I enjoy. So that is the life that I live Rebekah. I wake up in the morning, and I'm like, what if I wear this blue shirt? Like, is it immoral to wear it? Like what? I like go to the grocery store and I'm like, Is it wrong that I'm buying this? Like what if I didn't - you know what I mean. But it's like all the way down to like a micro, like microcosmic decisions to be like how would my life be differently if I changed my life in this way? Always from like, a moral perspective. And I definitely think that, it's like, yeah. I feel like there's definitely those people there who like have that thought experiment and then they like move on with their lives. And I think that's also really important to be able to cast like that. But when you're like trapped in that cycle of like, but what if I do this, but what if I do that? What if whatever? It can become like really overwhelming, like you were saying. Because then you just don't want to make a decision. Because who knows what's gonna happen. And I think that's the - that's that thing, too - is like that need for control that we're talking about. And like, some semblance of like I know where I'm going. And I know what's about to happen and I know that I'm going to be safe, right. I think that's like, the big thing, too, is like people looking for safety in like a lot of the visions of  the future that they see. And it's like an interesting balance to strike between like allowing yourself to consider all these possibilities, but then also acknowledging that you can't, like you were saying with a crystal ball, like you can't actually look into the future.

  Janine
  Yeah, that's such a cool article. I really want to read it Rebekah. I love Meet the Robinsons was one of my favorite when I was younger. And I think that if you pose the question, would I want to know what my life would look like a year, two years, three years from now, the answer for me is always No. I do not have that curiosity in me because I actively create my own future every day. And that sounds like - I've - this sounds kind of, I don't know, I watched an interview with Miley Cyrus last night talking about her album. And I really liked what she said. She goes, "every night, I kind of say goodbye to myself and I wake up a new person." And so that's where self forgiveness comes in is, you know, you can't say that, you know, next year I have to have this like checklist for my life. And for this year, and I have to do this, this and that. And I have this intricate plan. Because when you do that life kind of laughs at you and just says no. [laughs] Refuses everything that you know, you've pushed yourself to you know obsess over and stuff. So I think it's like maybe this balance that we need to strike between actively working for what we want in our lives. And, you know, working and manifesting that every day, but also letting go of that control and being like, I have this self forgiveness, self acceptance. Whatever comes will come, and I'm okay with it. And it's a very hard balance to strike.

  Sabrina  

  I think too Braeden, going back to what you were saying about like that external validation is so real. And it's like one of the many, many, many, many, many reasons why I get very upset when professors like excuse their terrible policies being like, well, I'm just preparing you for the real world. Like, no. You're just preparing me to continue in academia. And that's a whole other kettle of fish. But like, the real world is not like this. I had to like work through this, like with my therapist. Because at my - this job is great, because it's all about creative expression. And there's like no punishment to that. But I feel like the world, "real world" is interesting. Because when you're like employed somewhere, like you can get fired. So there is that kind of form of performance review. But like, as long as you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, like no one's gonna check in at the end of your work every day and be like "Good job! B plus! Here's how you could have improved," you know what I mean? Like, maybe you should have used like, a blue paperclip and 12 point font instead of a red paperclip and 10 point. Like, they just want to know that you got the thing done. 

  And I'm now in a position where I'm like working in a more of like a professional capacity where like, to me, it's like the concept of like being fired has like replaced the concept of like getting a C plus. And I'm like everything's terrible because then I'm just automatically gonna be fired. And I have to like, talking to my therapist about it, and I'm like, every decision I make, I'm like waiting for my supervisor to come back at me and be like here's where you could have improved. Here's where you did well and here's what you whatever. And it's like, she just wants me to get my work done. She does not care. You know what I mean? Like, she hired me because she thinks I'm competent. So she's like, there's ways that I'm being trained, but also ways where it's just like she's trusting me to do the thing. And it's more of like a completion mark, I suppose. If you want to keep up the school analogy. I think it's very interesting to be aware of those things, because I was not aware of it. 

  And I also found myself too - and I think this is like another issue with like the post-secondary system - but like, a lot of the assignments that I do in class, I'm not necessarily doing what I want to do. I'm doing what I think my TA is going to mark well, right. And that's also another mentality that I needed to subvert when I entered like this sort of position where it's like, I need to stop creating things that I think my supervisor is going to like pat me on the back for solely because I want her to pat me on the back. Like I need to create good work that I'm proud of that I know she will be happy with. Because she hired me to do the work that I know that I can do you know what I mean? And I feel like these are like really important things to acknowledge that people might not even realize, because then you enter like these workspaces and you have this feeling of like, why does everything feel so out of place? Like, what am I seeking? Like, why does this feel so weird? And it's just like, because everything that you've been like taught to do and the way that you've been trained to like interact with the work that you're doing is not actually appropriate for this space. And like you're not the problem. It's just like your conditioning and the way that you've been working for the past couple of years. And, yeah.

  Melissa
  I actually, Sabrina, something that you said made me think, actually kind of have a realization. I have an interview this week for a big person job, which is very exciting. But speaking of, you know, having that academic like evaluation sense instilled into you, I didn't even realize that I did this. But I reached out to somebody who like already works for the organization to try to get some insight into the interview process. And now that you said that, Sabrina, the only two questions that I asked her were about how I was going to be evaluated. So I asked her a question, how much do I need to know about x topic? Or like, Am I - I basically asked her if I was going to be quizzed. And then the second question that I asked is, does she want like, the interviewer, in your experience, does she want me to hand her a portfolio. And she basically responded and was like none of that is necessary. They're basically just - I hate, like, I don't want to say vibe checking, but basically they're just making sure that you're a good fit. And like, they made me do a personality assessment. So I'm pretty sure they're just making sure I'm not lying. 

  But like, the first thing that I wanted to know is like, Am I being tested on my knowledge? And if so, how am I being tested? And if, like what is the test look like? And I didn't even realize that that was an academic thing until this conversation right now. And it's funny, because when I realized that it wasn't going to be that, I felt relieved. So I feel like, I wondered what that kind of says about those values that have been instilled in us from being in academia for so long. The fact that I feel so relieved that she's just going to ask me about who I am as a human being and not judge me based on if I get a pretend test, right. Like, I don't know. I just, I didn't realize but that's kind of just a personal anecdote about how that - I feel like that idea kind of creeps into your life in ways that you don't realize all the time, which is very harmful in my opinion. But yeah, that definitely is going to take some unlearning. So if anybody has any tips on how to unlearn years of academic pressure, let me know. [laughter]

  Rebekah
  We're all like shaking our heads.

  Sabrina
  I did want to say, like, the biggest like - this isn't necessarily like a learning process. It was just one situation, but that kind of like helped me put things in certain perspective. It's like - my, one of my siblings is like over, a decade older than me. So I was like, back in like, [Rebekah gestures "me too"] (whoo, yeah! Rebekah! Twinsies). So like, it was like, I was back in early high school, early high school. And he was at my house, and he was doing like an interview, like Skype interview or whatever. And I was just in the living room, but I was like, over listening, because he was just talking, it was like everyone's business in the common space. And, you know, he's talking about his resume. And he's talking about his qualifications. And he was just like, yeah, I speak French, like English is my native language, but I also speak French. And I was waiting for them to be like, okay, conjugate like passe compose. Like, he was like, whatever. And like, the interviewer, I believe, also spoke French, and then just started speaking French to him. And then they spoke French for like, five minutes. And then they moved on. And I was like, they didn't test him. Like, they didn't test them. Like, they just spoke French. And then they moved on. And then I - this is like years later, right - like, a couple months ago, I was in the interview for the job that I'm in now that I'm trying to unlearn these like academic things. And, you know, she was just kind of like "So I see you speak French on your resume." And I was like, yeah, and she's like, cool. Like, someone that we're working with also speaks French, so you can connect on that. And then we just moved on. And I was like, Wow, I didn't need to do a dicté. I thought I would going to like interviews and they'd be like, so here are your conjugation sheets, you have 20 minutes, hand them back and then we'll evaluate your proficiency. 

  And I think it's really interesting because like, even like my partner, he's going into a different sector. And he actually gets quizzed in the sector that he's in. It's actually common to be quizzed and have take home assignments. And they'll send them to you and then see how you go through those assignments like to be hired, like, Oh my god, that sounds terrible. I'm looking at him right now telling him that like, that sounds terrible. So it's definitely not like all the case, I'm sure in certain respects like that academic training is helpful in certain sectors. And this is more of like a STEMy kind of sector for him. So that I think makes a lot more sense. Because it's more quantitative than qualitative. But yeah, I think what was very helpful for me was that seeing possibly the way that my life could turn out, even in early high school by like watching my brother's interview, even years, or listening to my brother's interview like even years, years, years ago, and then experiencing that kind of situation myself, is just understanding kind of like, even what Melissa was saying. Like understanding the circumstances where like, you aren't necessarily going to be quizzed. And like, that's okay. And just know that like, not everything in life is going to be like some pop quiz trying to trick you into like, creating a metric for your performance or something. Some people will just like believe you. Which I think is also something like it's like, phased out of people as they move through like institutions and structured institutions. Like people don't believe people for things. Like you need a whole note that you have to pay for just to tell someone that you were sick. And like, can I get like a rewrite for this thing? Like yeah, it's just interesting that in the "real world" there's more space for trust and just kind of like taking people for their word.

  Braeden
  Yeah, um, maybe to round out the end of our hour together I would love it if we could go around, and if everyone, if you're comfortable, if you could share maybe some work or an aspect of your work, or the way that your work that you work that you're proud of. And then maybe, do you have like an intention or a well wish to cast towards yourself over this break for your rest and restoration? Like, as we round out our last conversation into the year like what's like a good intention that you want to cast towards yourself to invest in yourself over the break?

  Rebekah
  Oh, tough question. I don't know, for me, I'm working on a couple of different projects right now. And I guess I'm just really proud of the way that like, I've not only like sought out like these different projects that feel very different from what I usually do in my academics as a way to like challenge me. Like I'm working this writing project right now, and I write a lot for myself, but I don't really write for other people very often. And so this is a, like a challenge and a test, but I get to interview some people who I'm really excited to interview and like, you know, tell the story that I don't think that is like currently being told. But my well wish for myself for over the break is to reconnect with my grandparents. I know, that's completely unrelated to what I just said. But, um, I've been like, meaning to like, reconnect with them for a while. And it gets like really hard to do that like during the thick of the school year. And so I floated the idea to my grandparents a couple of weeks ago that I want to do like an interview style thing with them like I did when I was in high school as an updated version four years later. Because I think that there's like more questions that I want to ask them. And while I still have them here to ask those questions, I want to like make sure I can document that and like have that as a family historian type of thing. So, um yeah, that's my wish for myself is to like actually make that happen. And so I'm saying this now, because I'm gonna listen to this later. And it's going to remind myself, Hey, did you do that thing that you said you're going to do? And hopefully the answer will be yes. There we go.

  Janine
  I love that idea. I think that just inspired me to do the same with my grandmas. To call them and ask them these questions. I think for me in the break, I want to just personally clear my head a bit. And like I said before, kind of find my voice again and find my passion again. Because I think I've lost it for a bit. Like not lost it, but it's definitely dim because of like, a lot of anxiety and stress and stuff lately. And I think that I want to meditate. That's one way that I want to take care of myself and whatever will come creatively will come. Whether it's writing or audio or visuals, I'm just giving myself that space to breathe. Like, it sounds like a simple thing. But it's, it's harder than it seems to just breathe and meditate and take care of myself in that sense.

  Sabrina
  For me, something that I'm proud of, in my workflow - I think I've been moving into a space of establishing good boundaries across everything that I'm committed to in a way that honors how I've committed to those things. And doesn't like, have me like under delivering. But then also in a way where I can like juggle everything. And I think my like wish for myself for this, this kind of break period is honestly just to rest. And to like, just take some time to do nothing or like do things that I enjoy. Like for myself. I don't even know, I don't even know what rest means. Because I also have like a bunch of ideas. So it's like, people are like well you need to rest and it's like but I also want to do 1000 things. So like, I don't. I don't know how you marry those two things. But I will - I don't know, hit me up in three weeks, and we'll see if I figured it out.

  Melissa
  Those are all really great well wishes to yourself. I think that it's really important to cut yourself some slack when you can. And on that note, I guess something that I am proud of is I was talking to folks about my education plan earlier. So it's basically just an academic assignment that I'm working on. And I'm really proud of it. Because I think that I surprised myself with how like legitimate it feels. Like I feel like looking at it makes me feel like maybe I am actually a museum professional. And I don't know, I feel like it kind of helps mitigate some of that imposter syndrome. So it's always nice when you produce something that you feel like, Hey, I could maybe actually show this to an institution. So that's been pretty cool. And it's also been fun to work on. And then my wish for myself I think is just to be nice to myself over the break. So if I need a day off to not do anything like that's okay. Whatever the outcome of this interview is, I think just being nice to myself about that. In echoing what Janine said, like, I'd also like to be creative over the break. I have a knitting project that I'm working on, but like if I don't finish it that's okay. So yeah, I think just giving myself space to be productive or to not be productive and trying not to put too much pressure on myself, which I'm pretty good at putting pressure on myself. That is I'm not as good at taking pressure off. So we'll work on that this week. And what about you Braeden?

  Braeden
  Um yeah, I think something, I think something that I'm, I'm proud of around work is that I'm realizing, I feel like for the first time, sort of my work is like integrating itself with me as a person and like who I am and how I move through the world. And like - and I feel like the actual bedrock of my work is in building relationships. And I feel like that's kind of who I am as a person. Like, I feel like I'm returning to who I've always been. And that's also just like integrating its way into work where it's just like the foundation of all of this, is in building relationships, building trusting meaningful relationships. But also, yeah, creating pathways for creative expression for myself and for the people around me. And so yeah, that just feels, it feels really nice to come into alignment with that after sort of years of like, a very like turbulent working life. And then something I guess, like some well wishes, I think I just want to read. Like, I just want to, I just want to sit on the couch and like read a book for three hours. And if I like fall asleep after 15 minutes with like, with napping with like the book on my face, like, that's cool. That sounds like bliss.  

  So yeah, thank you. Thank you all for sharing. And for joining me in this convo. This is, this was really lovely. And I'm wishing all of you a wonderful restorative break and look forward to connecting in the new year and in hearing about all the nice things you all did for yourselves. Thank you so much to Sabrina, Rebekah, Janine, and Melissa for joining me in the West, Meeting Room for our last conversation of 2020. And a big thank you to all of our extended Hart House podcasting family who have all taught me so much about how to hold space for meaningful conversations. I hope this finds you heading into 2021 with a bit of a lighter load. And if things are feeling heavy right now, I would encourage you to call up someone who's helped you, someone who can bring you comfort, or someone who can make you laugh. Take care of each other in the meantime, and we'll be with you next week. 

• 

  Everyone is an Artist—A Conversation with Adeyemi Adegbesan

  Read Transcript

  SPEAKERS
  Jessica Rayne, Zoe Dille, Adeyemi Adegbesan (AKA Yung Yemi)

  Jessica Rayne  
  Hello! And welcome to The West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting from Hart House and you’re listening to CiUT 89.5 FM. And we’re grateful to be taking up space on Dish With One Spoon Territory. I’m Jessica Rayne, Program Associate at Hart House and I’ll be your host for today’s show, along with my colleague Zoe Dille. Today we’ll be discussing art, community and mentorship with Yung Yemi, Toronto-based photographic artist whose practice aims to examine the intersectionality of Black identity. Yung Yemi uses his art as a way of weaving together his connection with his community. He brings us into his creative process where he remixes and samples history with reimagining of the future. We are delighted to have Yung Yemi join us in conversation and take a closer look at his art and the work he’s been doing with community. We are also excited to have him engaged in the Hart House Black Futures and Youth Access Programming. If you have not seen Yung Yemi’s work, be sure to follow him @yung.yemi on social media.

  Jessica Rayne  
  So you know, we’re so happy to have you Yemi be a part of this. You know, we’ve been talking since last year around what we can do together. So I’m glad that we get this chance to speak with you. So just to start off, it would be great just like introducing yourself to the world or the listeners that would be listening to this. Like what do you do? How do you describe what you do? Who you are?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Well, first of all, I appreciate you guys having me on. It’s great to be here with you guys today. So for the listeners, my name is Adeyemi Adegbesan. I’m a Toronto-based visual artist. I guess the main theme of my work is Afrofuturism and, and Pan Africanism. And I work in a number of different disciplines. I work with photography, illustration, and I’m getting a little bit into sort of mural making and some sculptural stuff as well. And I guess my background, artistically, I guess, is in photography. I spent a number of years as a commercial photographer before I started sort of going down that path. And before that, I was a youth outreach worker. So it’s been, it’s been an interesting journey in my adult life. But I’m very, very happy to be here and very, very honored that I get the opportunity to do this and make a living doing what I love.

  Zoe Dille  
  So you, you mentioned a whole lot of things there. But funny enough, I’m listening to you, and I’m like, they all kind of connect in a way, right?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  So yeah, there’s definitely a common thread of commonality between where I’ve been and where I’m at now. It’s definitely, it hasn’t been like, you know, a traditional path by any means. But um, it’s, from my perspective, it’s just felt like a pursuit. Like, I’ve just felt like I’ve been sort of, sort of chasing a vision for a long time. And I, like again, I just like, I just have a lot of gratitude in this moment, because I feel like I’m a lot closer to it now than I ever have been in the past. But yeah, when I, when I look at all the steps that it took to get here like it, it does make sense, you know. Even though I’m sure like, you know, from another perspective, it might seem like sort of like a random hodgepodge of different endeavors like, it makes sense once it, once it gets broken down.

  Zoe Dille  
  For sure. I mean, I will just say about tradition, I think it’s highly overrated. S that’s ok that you did your own path. So we are, we are still in the official decade of African peoples. And you mentioned Afrofuturism and I wonder, I mean, there are a lot of different takes on it. But from your perspective, what does that mean and how do you describe it and in what ways does that kind of help to inform your art work?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Well, um, yeah. There are a lot of different takes on it, I think. I think like in, in the early 90s, there was like sort of a definition that got popularized, which is basically like this - it was, it was sort of simplistic. It was like traditional sci fi sort of from like a white Eurocentric perspective, but just appropriated by Black people. And it like, it, I guess that makes sense. But it’s like, it’s sort of, it’s very simplistic. But I think like, over the last couple of decades that definition has become a lot more nuanced. And like, you know, here in 2020, the working definition that I’m working from is basically like, it’s a fantasy sort of realm, but it’s based on African, African and Black spirituality, and sort of, I guess like a reverence for the ancestors’ ancestral knowledge. But yeah, it’s positioned in this sort of fantastical, futuristic realm. And, like, the value of that is that it’s, it’s just a really free creative space. Um, I think like, a lot of Black art gets, like, especially once it gets into the institutions, and you know, the high art galleries, it gets, at times, it gets, like, hyper literalized. And that, and that’s cool because it imparts a lot of knowledge of, you know, African culture. And that’s an amazing, important thing. But the flip side of it is that it can become somewhat restrictive. In terms of like, the, I guess, just the imaginary, the creative aspect of, you know, of art that I think a lot of people, a lot of just, you know, common people really appreciate. And Afrofuturism kind of like provides a platform for that type of art, that type of creativity that doesn’t have necessarily a textbook definition. It doesn’t have like a - it doesn’t need to have like a super specific historical connection or historic context. It can, it can really just be a place of pure expression, much of the way that hip hop was like, in the late 70’s, and early 80’s. It was just kind of like a breath of fresh air. Where in a culture where people have become heavily jaded towards, you know, modern music and pop cultural music, it was just like this new voice that was just like raw expression. And I think that’s kind of like what Afrofuturism as a genre is offering right now in terms of art creation.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Yeah, I mean, you mentioned a lot there. But two things that stuck out to me is like, just this sense of possibility that you have when you think about Afrofuturism, right. And that is the kind of fantasy part, but then it’s not all just like something that’s out of this world that’s totally unattainable, because it is entrenched in this ancestral knowledge and in this self-knowledge of African peoples. And so I think, and we’ll talk about this a little bit later on, but I think this is something that is like so needed at this moment, you know, for us to think about all the possibilities and all the strength and all the power and and  knowledge that African peoples and African civilizations hold for us at this really kind of critical time. But I will circle back to that in a bit. Jessica?

  Jessica Rayne  
  Yeah. No, I just wanted to say, like, what you’re saying Yemi is very important, I think because when we think about art as expression and a lot of the expression of our people could be sometimes, you know what I mean, a lot of community trauma, right? So a lot of questions through art sometimes are heavier or you know, kind of reflecting on that trauma and pain, often. But this - being able to experience this, and I know there’s other artists out there as well that do this, but I mean, it’s just Yeah, a fresh breath of air. It’s inspiring. It’s, it’s unique. It’s also trenched in kind of just your own identity, right? Like, there’s something that it does when you watch, when you actually experience it, or you see your artwork around your African ancestry, right? So I think yeah, this type of art is definitely very important. Even people who are not so into, you know, the, I won’t even say, futurism ideas, right. But what that, yeah - So, um, I wanted, Yeah, there’s a few things there that I want to circle back on. So I guess, right now, I want to take it back to - you talk a little bit about your journey and how it wasn’t really, you know, the straight and narrow path to becoming an artist doing what you’re doing now. But I want to learn a little more about that. So what is your story? So take us back into like the time that you -  what sparked you, your passion for the arts? And then what was the journey like actually becoming an artist? Because I know, for a lot of artists, even though they are doing their craft, or doing the work, they may not call themselves an artist until a particular moment in time. So just understanding what that’s been like for you, and how you’ve defined yourself as an artist and when that took place would be great.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Sure. Yeah, that’s a - and I totally get that. I think, like, I think everybody really is an artist. But I guess, not everyone is an artist for their profession. And like, not everyone makes a living at it. So that’s how I defined it for my, I guess, or just the sort of definition that I made for myself. Like that my goal was to make a living off of my art. So that’s, I’ve always felt like I was an artist, but like, my, one of the things that drove me the most was to be able to make a living off of that art. And that’s, you know, that’s definitely tricky. Like, my pathway, there was, um, you know, it started - like, my earliest memories are just, you know, sitting in my living room or sitting in my bedroom drawing. Like my mom was a nurse. Like, I grew up with a single parent mother. She was a registered nurse. She worked nights most of the time. So I would be at a babysitter all night. And then I’d come home in the day. She was sleeping and I had to occupy myself. We didn’t, we couldn’t afford a television. So I - like pen, pencils, and paper was like my go to way of entertaining myself. So like, that’s literally like my earliest childhood memories. I drew and painted like a lot all through elementary school up until high school. I took a little break in high school. I got really into sports and like being an artist, like drawing and stuff, like it really wasn’t cool. So I took a couple years off from that. But um, you know, like in my late teenage years, I sort of got back into it. I started a little clothing line with a friend of mine. And, you know, we would put designs on T-shirts and hoodies and stuff like that. And then from there, I got into sort of like, graphic design, web design stuff. I started messing around with like video editing. And it was just like one thing after another. Like I tried tattooing for a little while. And like I didn’t, I didn’t even get into photography until about the age of like, around 28,29 is when I really started taking photography seriously. And I do, like I honestly think that if photography didn’t work out for me, like I probably would have just been like, okay, like, this art thing really is not meant to be and I just have to find another path. But, you know, again, like I just feel so fortunate that like the photography thing like - I guess it was just a lot of things clicked once I started trying to look at the world through a camera lens. Like a lot of things just made sense. A lot of the learning I had done in the past for other artistic disciplines, I was able to apply it, apply that learning, that knowledge much more effectively through photography for whatever reason. And that it just opened up for me and that was the beginning of me being able to support myself with my art. And like once I got to that stage, It just allowed me to put all my time and effort and energy into what I was doing. I didn’t have to, like moonlight or you know, do it in the evenings or weekends anymore. I could just like do it all day every day. And that, I guess that was sort of like a turning point. Like, my sort of life as an artist is like, centered around continued learning. That always, I always want to be learning, I always want to be picking up a new skill or a new, you know, just like putting time and effort to developing something new. So that’s kind of how I got from photography to the place I’m at now is just by experimenting on a consistent basis and just trying to add new things into the mix all the time. Um, but yeah, that’s the pathway in a nutshell, I guess. Like I don’t know, I don’t really know how else to put it. But yeah, it’s, uh, it’s been like a really interesting path. Like, I don’t have any, I don’t have any art, schooling. I never went to art school or anything like that. But it’s just a lot of tutorials and a lot of asking questions and a lot of trial and error. And it worked out. I had a couple of mentors, especially with photography. One, off the top, was a gentleman named Taha Muharuma and he’s a really dope photographer from Toronto. His Instagram is @tahaphoto. He’s just like a really dope street photographer. And he reached out to me, like, out of the clear blue, like, really early on, when I was starting photography. He just saw me on Instagram and just reached out and said, like,”hey, do you wanna go out and take some photos one day?” and I met up with him. And he taught me like, a lot of stuff about photography, you know, just really informally. But it had a huge impact on my development. And another person I definitely have to shout out is Jimmy Chiale. He’s like a, he’s an abstract painter. He’s done, like, his work is all over the city, it’s very, very noticeable. And he, like, he’s been a friend of mine for a long time, as well. And just like, he just has this raw creative energy, probably like the purest artist that I’ve ever been around. Like, it just, it just really flows out of him. And he just always encouraged me to pursue it. Like he, um, I wouldn’t call him a mentor from a technical standpoint, because what we do is just like way way different from each other. But from an ideological perspective, like, he was definitely a mentor to me, just in terms of like, just do it till you figure it out. And like his story is amazing, too. You know, he immigrated here from Paris when he was like, you know, in his early teenage years. He was homeless for a little while and he went from selling his drawings and paintings at the corner of like Queen and Bathurst, you know, to having his own gallery space in Toronto a few years ago. It’s just been like, an amazing journey for him as well. And, yeah, he’s just always, like, throughout the course of our friendship, he’s just always been really encouraging and supportive.

  Zoe Dille  
  It’s so inspirational, like, just to hear a lot of the things that you’re saying, just to pick up on mentors - I mean, something we were, Jessica and I and others on our team were kind of just thinking about a bit - we were tasked with doing these introduction videos for, you know, some new students we were going to be working with, and we had some prompt questions, and one of them was around, like, “Who’s your mentor? Or what’s the importance of being a mentor?” And, you know, it just made me think a bit about all the people along the path of my life so far who have been important to me. So many of which don’t even know they were a mentor to me, you know, or maybe were not the traditional, you know, “I’m going to teach you this craft, or I’m going to job shadow you,” it’s just like, wow, I really aspire to have the values of this person or just kind of carry myself the way that this person does. So, super important. But, you know, so, first of all, I’m so not an artist. I’m still on the stick people. That’s about where I began and ended my artistic - I’m creative in a thought kind of way, in a writing kind of way, but not anything I do with my hands or whatever. So to be self-taught, I always, you know, have a lot of respect for people who are able to, you know, have that as something that they just sort of pick up, as you mentioned. And then just thinking about you not having a TV, I also grew up pretty much without a TV, just because my parents were really stingy and they didn’t believe in TV. Which I thank them for now because I got us all into music and just being outside and all of that, but to think about you, as a child being in the single parent home and almost you know what they call like a latchkey kid because your mom, as you said was working and you had like babysitters, etc… To being where you are now, where your work is really public, where you had this little - Jessica was gonna talk to you a little bit about the show she saw at Harbourfront that she did, but also your latest commission with the Raptors. Like, talk a little bit about kind of, you know, do you sit back at all and say like, wow. You know, do you have like a “pinch me” moment? You know, this latest thing, I saw your T shirt that you did for the Raptors and I was like, where do I get one of those? Which I’ll still hit you up about later because I want one. But like how did that all sort of unfold? And you know, how do you feel about your work and being kind of connected to sports at this really pivotal moment with so much stuff that’s going on? And you know, Raptors I think are at the forefront of what’s going on with NBA and social justice movement.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Yeah, honestly, like, again, um, I mean, this will become a theme throughout this conversation, I guess. But it’s mostly, it’s just gratitude. Like, I don’t feel like a lot of like a direct ownership over my work. I feel like it’s more of a process of channeling. So I’m just, I’m grateful when I get, when I get that inspiration and I’m grateful when it connects with people. I’m grateful when it resonates with people and I’m grateful when it finds its way into opportunities. Like the thing with the Raptors, you know, I’m, I, you know, obviously like growing up being super into basketball, I had like, I had the posters all over my wall. I had a big Damon Stoudamire poster on my wall. I had a big Vince Carter poster on my wall. So to go from that to, you know, to designing shirts specifically for the Raptors to where, you know, as you said, it like it is a super pivotal moment, you know, where they’re not only athletes, but they’re also embracing their activism and, you know, fighting for social justice. It’s an incredible honor. And I’m so grateful to be here. But it’s also, it’s something that I don’t like, I don’t really think of it as my thing, as like I, you know, I have ownership over this action or this moment. It’s more just like I just happen to be like a conduit. I’m sort of in the right place at the right time to just channel some of these ideas and some of this energy and bring it over to this, this other space, you know. Um, so that’s kind of, that’s kind of how I look at it. And when I look at my life from that perspective, I just think of it as a very fluid experience. I’m not, I’m not super attached. Like I was 1,000% I was the definition of a latchkey kid, you know. I literally had a key on a string that I’d wear around my neck. But I like I don’t think of it as you know, as this like, personal accomplishment really, like I don’t. I just don’t choose to view it that way. It’s just, it’s just more of a fluid experience. And I’ve had, like, I’ve had an amazing range of experiences throughout my life. I’ve been very, you know, growing up in a very low income family, like I’ve, you know, been to the food bank. I’ve, you know, had clothing donated to me. I’ve had that experience. And I, you know, I’ve been a youth worker. I’ve been in, you know, all kinds of communities working with young people across the city. And I’ve been in those experiences and I’ve experienced loss and I’ve experienced gain. And, you know, in the last couple years, I’ve had the great fortune, even to, you know, to get out of Canada and do some traveling. You know, I’ve been to Europe, I’ve been to Asia and just experiencing other cultures. And it’s all just, you know, part of like one big fluid sort of existence, and I just try to focus on the gratitude of it, you know,

  Zoe Dille  
  Mm hmm. Gratitude is super important and just a way of life. And I think something that people are somewhat waking up to, and since COVID, right. So hopefully, it will continue. But, yeah, I mean, I think it’s, again, you know, you reference the posters that you had and being into basketball, and then being able to do this. I mean, it must be pretty amazing. I know. I don’t know, Mark, Mark Stoddart that well, but I know he’s also an artist. We did a little work with him a few years ago on an event. So it was, just it was really cool to see that both of you guys, you know, were sort of tapped to - do you feel like it was your work? Was that like more of a personal connection? Were they just drawn to your work? Was there a process of submissions for that? How did, how did that unfold?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Well, yeah, like, I mean, I had a previously existing relationship with the team. Like I’ve been doing a lot of creative work for MLSE as a whole. Since say 2016 or 2017, I’ve been part of campaigns for like TFC, the Raptors, the Leafs, you know, even like I designed some of the season tickets for the Raptors last year. So like a lot of, a lot of different stuff like that. So they definitely were aware of who I was and what my style of work was. So I think it was just like, sort of like a natural connection when they, when this opportunity came up, and they started looking for people. And then, you mentioned Mark Stoddart. So I was able to bring Mark Stoddart in to work on this, on this project with me, and like, he’s just, he’s just an amazing artists. Like he’s been, in terms of the Black community here in Toronto, like, he’s, he’s been a consistent presence, and a creative force in that scene, you know, since like it basically since like, the late 80s, you know, and, and also touching back on the concept of being a mentor, like, he’s been a mentor to so many to so many young black artists coming up in Toronto over the past, you know, over the past 30 years, you know, so it was, it was amazing to be able to work with him on this project, because he’s like, he’s woven into the fabric of, of the black creative community here in Toronto. And it’s just, you know, it’s an honor to be able to work with him on it.

  Jessica Rayne  
  You know, you mentioned your community work and engaging youth and you work community work, outreach worker, prior to getting your out art out there and making a living off of your art. So if you can talk a bit about that, like, tell us a bit about the work that you did what you do in the community, in the past, but also how you’re doing it now on your approach to working with you, and what’s the importance of art and creating art for youth? And I don’t know if that’s, that is how you were engaging with youth prior. But yeah, if you can just share some of that with us.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Um, yeah, absolutely. So like, my educational background is actually in social work. I have a BSW from Ryerson. And that kind of led me into, like, you know - in school, my focus was always on working with youth. Like in a social work program, you’re kind of, you’re encouraged to sort of pick, like a demographic to, to center your learning around. So I just, I just gravitated towards youth, I guess. I guess, because, you know, when I started at school, like I technically was still a youth, you know, so I don’t know but for whatever reason, it just made sense to me, and I just kind of, like, I kept going with that. It started from working, just like summer camps and stuff like that. And transitioned to working after-school programs. And then into the youth outreach work. And yeah, like, my main methods for engaging with youth were always either art or basketball. Like, those are the things that I knew and that I could be sort of like openly passionate about. And that was just like, that was just a huge thing. Throughout my experience, you know, being a youth worker was just to be able to be authentic with the youth that I was working with. Because that’s one thing that I learned very, very quickly is that the youth that you’re working with will know immediately if you’re not being real with them, if you’re not being authentic with them. It’s like, they just have like built in, a built in like radar, sonar, whatever, that just, like, tells them right away. So I, you know, I could, like, show them something, like, you know, create, like an art program with them or something like that. And like, they could see how into it I was and how like open I could be about it and vulnerable I could be about it. And that would I guess allow them to connect to me. And that was, that was always like a main drawing point. And yeah, like the work - like a lot of the time it was just like general outreach work, like just trying to trying to develop programming that would bring youth into the centers to develop, like they have drop-in spaces that could function as you know, just a place to hang out, but also some programming that could impart life skills and you know, just help connect them to other resources that would help in their own personal developments. So, you know, sometimes that was - it was a lot of art, it was a lot of basketball. Sometimes it was cooking. Sometimes it was like trying to bring a speaker in from youth employment services to speak about financial literacy or stuff like that. And the last couple of years of youth work that I did, I transitioned into working with newcomer youth. So I was working with Access Alliance for a little while. And that was, that was really, it was a little bit of a different experience. It was really eye opening because working with youth that were, a lot of them were like, newly landed. Many of them were refugee claimants and so forth. So I got introduced to this whole other side of things, you know, seeing like youth coming into the center, and they’ve only been in Canada for like, two weeks or something like that. I actually, you know, I witnessed some youth getting deported. Like the pain of like, you know, kids coming into center, and like their friend is gone on. It’s a Tuesday and all of a sudden their friend is gone. It’s like, what happened? And like, Oh, yeah, people came to their house last night and put them on a plane, and they’re like, they’re back in, you know, they’re back in Iran, or back in Syria or something like that. And so that, that really gave me a new sort of perspective on life and how much value there is and how much privilege there is in, you know, for me to be here, to be a Canadian citizen and have this opportunity. So yeah, it’s just, it’s again, it just speaks to the range of experiences. It’s, it was really a very eye opening and very humbling experience.

  Zoe Dille  
  We were just chatting about gratitude before. And just based on what you’ve just said and everything you just said just now, as well as when you were talking, referencing sort of having to be authentic with youth, and how they can kind of sniff that out in a second when you’re not. But I would add that you know, empathy, having a lot of empathy, right, in your work as a social worker, and just as a human being. Like gratitude and empathy, they’re good markers to steer you in being a good human being, right.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Absolutely, absolutely.

  Zoe Dille  
  So just I wanted to ask you, actually, because earlier you mentioned about hip-hop being kind of like this liberating and very free form, and just kind of full of possibility when it was initially coming up in the 70s. And kind of linking that to Afrofuturism, how we think about Afrofuturism. And specifically with the Afro, the way that you kind of remade various hip hop women like your Lauryn Hills and your Erykah Badus and all of that in your artwork. I wonder if you could just speak about what made you - I mean I love those two - but what made you choose like those particular figures that you worked with in your artwork? And you know, what is it about those women that kind of made you create the work that you did?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan   
  In a word, I feel like they’re liberators, you know. I think music has been a huge influence on my whole life. It’s been a source of inspiration. It’s been a source of education. And when I do work around these musicians, I just try to honor people that have really had a profound personal impact on me. And through their own artistic creations, you know like Lauryn Hill, Erykah Badu. Absolutely. I’ve done Fela Kuti as well, and a few others. And they’re always just like people that I feel embody the same values, I guess, that I’m trying to convey through my work. So it’s just trying to, like, sort of put those two things together. But yeah, like they, like those people have all been liberators. And I feel like the way that they live their life has been very unconventional, but just so profound at the same time, that it’s just opened up a lot of space for other artists to come up in the footprints that they’ve created, you know. And that just means so much to me. So it’s just like, it’s just sort of like a way of honoring that, you know.

  Zoe Dille  
  I mean, listen, those women are fierce. If you throw on Lauryn Hill’s Miseducation of Lauryn Hill -

  Jessica Rayne  
  Wooo! My fave! That was my first CD growing up. That was my first, I got a boombox, a CD player - I can’t remember if it was my birthday or Christmas, but that’s the CD that came with it and it was unbelievable

  Zoe Dille  
  Maaan, listen. I rinsed that CD. And Erykah Badu Baduizm

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  A hundred percent.

  Zoe Dille  
  Yeah. I mean, those women are so fierce. And so I was just gonna say like, if you throw on any of those ladies’ stuff today, you’re like, Wow, it is totally on point. It sounds like it came out today. It still hits you in the gut, and you know, you’re always gonna remember it.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  A hundred percent. Yeah, it’s really, it’s like, it’s timeless. Like, in the sense that it’s a, it was, you know, obviously, it had a huge impact when it came out. But like you just said, like, when you throw it on it, you know, 20, 25 years later, it’s still - Yeah, it has that same impact. And it’s, it’s wild to be able to imagine creating something like that as an artist. So, yeah.

  Zoe Dille  
  Definitely. I mean, when Verses, I don’t know if you watch Verses at all, but when it first started, and they had Erykah Badu

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  And Jill Scott

  Zoe Dille  
  And Jill Scott, yes! I thought I’d died and gone to heaven.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  That was, that was definitely a moment. That was so incredible.

  Zoe Dille  
  For sure. For sure.

  Jessica Rayne  
  I wanted to ask a question around something you mentioned earlier in the conversation about like, us being like, everyone is an artist. And if you can elaborate on that definition. You said that’s the definition you kind of work with. That everyone is an artist, but some people decide to make a craft out of their art. Can you share that? Like, what’s your philosophy, more about that philosophy?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Well, like yeah. A hundred percent. I feel like everyone’s an artist in the sense that like it, like having this innate creative ability is part of human existence. You know, it’s part of, it’s part of what makes a human, a human, I think. And I think everyone has that. Like, if you watch children play, like, most children have no problem, you know, if you give them some crayons and paper. Like, they’ll do something with it, you know, before they’re even aware of like what’s good and what’s not good, or whatever, like, evaluating it from that perspective. Like they can just innately produce something with those tools, you know, so I feel like everyone’s an artist, on various levels. Like, we all have different things that we like to express, you know. Like, some people are musically inclined. Some people like to dance. Some people like to write. Some people like to draw. It really doesn’t matter. I feel like gardening is an art form, you know. Like, it really doesn’t matter. It’s just, it’s just how we express ourselves. Um, but yeah, like, there’s a, I guess, a group of people that say, “hey, I want to take this to the next level, I want to do this all the time. And I want to generate the income that I need to live from doing this activity.” And that’s just like, that for me was the sort of the challenge or the way I put it in my own head. It’s nothing like, it’s not to say that one person’s art is more valuable, or more important. It’s just like, I guess, taking on the added pressure and the added responsibility of figuring out how to make this as a living. And to be quite honest with you, like, I think for a lot of artists, a lot of young artists really focus on the craft and on the creative process. And rightfully so. Like, I think they, I think that should be the main focus, but I’ll be honest with you. Like, I think the transition that takes you from, from that craft into a profession, a lot of times that transition doesn’t happen because of skill level or because of creative output. A lot of times that happens because of just like, business acumen and work ethic and like really boring stuff that’s, like, not fun to talk about. But like, that’s one thing that I always try to impart on young artists when I’m talking to them or when I’m in a mentorship position. It’s like, there’s a lot of artists out there that make a living off of stuff that doesn’t require a lot of talent, like flatly put. I’m not trying to shade anybody, but they have the, they’ve put in place the other aspects that you need to put in place to like make a business out of it, you know. And that requires as much attention, in some cases more attention than the actual creative process. Like I think it’s, for a lot of young artists, it’s a fantasy to just like, you know, do what you do and then just have somebody sort of come out of the clouds and say, “Oh, you’re ordained as the next whatever. And we’re just going to pay you like $500,000 a year to like to do this for the rest of your life.” But that’s like, that happens about as often as people win the lottery, you know, or  probably less so. So most of the time, most of the artists that you see that are professional working artists, they just, they found something that they love doing. And then they said, “Okay, I’m going to build a business around this. And that, like, a lot of the time that they spend, a lot of their weeks are spent doing like non-artistic things. But they just, they’re just committed and focused to do those things to support the opportunity to, you know, to put their artwork out to share with the world.

  Zoe Dille  
  I think that’s one of the takeaways, as you said, about anybody who wants to, whether you want to be a musician, or you want to be, you know, an artist, creative artist, is that, you know, like, at the end of the day, like, it is a craft and you have to put your time in to work on that. And to do that, like, you would never go out on tours as a musician and you hadn’t rehearsed. Or you hadn’t created new work, or you didn’t, you know, have something. And it’s the same thing, like you have to be always creating kind of new works. But at the same time, like if that is your, the way you choose to live your life and you want to just, you know, make a living and survive in this world, then you also have to put some time in and get serious about the other sides of, you know, having a business, like making a business out of your art. So it’s not always as easy as you know, as you’ve said, as a lot of people maybe think that it is or that these sort of stories of overnight success, whether in music or in art, are few and far between. And frankly, I’m not sure there’s such a thing as overnight success. Yeah,

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Yeah. Exactly.

  Jessica Rayne  
  I know. You find out like the person that you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, how did they do that so quickly?” Well, 20 years ago… you know, it always starts way back.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Exactly.

  Jessica Rayne  
  So I know, we got to wrap up soon, because we’re almost at time. I have a question that just came out on the fly. Like, I just need to ask it. But in terms of the work - you know, I went to your exhibit at Harbourfront. And just thinking of the process, specifically around how, I’m assuming there’s a lot of research that goes into this too and that you’ve probably been through a journey of kind of understanding your identity and just creating, you know, a connection to the motherland, Africa, in terms of all of the like – when I look at an image that you’ve created, I see, you know, a lot of the artifacts and the hair and the meaning of, you know, the tribal symbols. And so, just understanding what has that part been like for you, because I’m making an assumption here, that you must have done a lot of research and just in understanding, I mean, you know, history.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I, like I’ve spent most of my life like just trying to understand my heritage and trying to understand, I guess like, African diasporic heritage in a broader sense, you know. I think like, you know, growing up without, like, a direct connection to my African ancestry, because my father is Nigerian, but he wasn’t present in my life. So I like, I really had to undertake that journey, you know, on myself. Like, my mother was always super supportive and always encouraged me to pursue that knowledge, but like, I had to kind of come about it for myself. So a lot of it is, has been a lot of, it has been reading and, you know, seeking out connections in my community and just developing it on my own. And then when it comes out, when it comes out in the artwork, it’s just kind of like drawing off all these reference points that I’ve come across along that path. It’s kind of just like different synapses firing and I just, I just kind of tried to weave them together into like a coherent sort of visual language that kind of encompasses all of the things that I’ve come across that have had meaning on my journey and in my personal learning. And I like I don’t try to present it in a way where I’m trying to replace the function of a history textbook. Like I never create a piece and say, “okay, like, you’re supposed to look at this piece and it represents exactly this and this and this” um, that’s not really where I’m trying to come from with my work. It’s more like, I just want people to have more of a visceral like emotional reaction to it. A sense of maybe, maybe a sense of pride or at least a sense of curiosity, where they want to dig a little bit deeper. Maybe they’ll see a symbol in it that reminds them of something that they grew up with. Or maybe they’ll just recognize it and be like, “Wow, I’ve seen that like three or four times now and I really, I need to find out what that is.” And then they’ll look into it a little bit more on their own and just realize, Hey, this is what that means. You know, that’s an adinkra symbol, for instance, or something like that. And that’s kind of, that’s kind of where I’m coming from, with the work. It’s a process of re-mixing. My actual, like, technical process is a process of re-mixing. And also like, from an ideological perspective, it’s re-mixing, it’s sampling. It’s very similar, I think, in a lot of ways to what hip-hop music is, in that sense. It’s a lot of small fragments woven together. But I really want the entry point to just be like a visceral emotional reaction. Like the same way that a song comes on, and you just feel it. You’re like, this is dope. You might not know that the first snare was sampled off of, you know, like this soul record from 1960 or whatever. You might not know that off the top. If it really means a lot to and you want to dig into it, and you start, you look up the producers, and you look up all the sample credits and blah, blah, blah. Like that’s, that’s what the superfans do. And it sparks like a journey of musical knowledge, right. But that same song can also work for a person that doesn’t want to go that deep with it. They can just feel it on like an emotional level. Like you know, “this is my song.” And every time it comes on, it’s just like a head nod thing. And it just plays in the background and it’s just like, Yo, this is dope. And I want to be able to connect with people on that level as well. Like, that’s really important to me because I feel like in the communities that I grew up in, in the communities that have been a part of in my life, not everyone had the bandwidth. Like I’ve been around a lot of people in my life that survival is like at the forefront of their existence. Like that’s a primary focus, you know. I’ve also been around people where survival is not a word that comes out of their mouth, it’s not really part of the vocabulary as well you know. And so I know what that side of it looks like, but a lot of the people I connected with, especially growing up, like survival was at the forefront, you know. And if that’s where you’re coming from, you might not have the mental bandwidth all the time to go that deep with a piece of art or with a song that you like. But I still want people like that to have something to connect it to even if it’s just like on an intuitive level you know.

  Zoe Dille  
  You’ve just made me think about the Lauryn Hill picture in like even more of a different way when you’re just talking about a re-mixing and sampling and this kind of layering and all these kinds of contexts. And it’s just made me, in my mind’s eye I’m seeing it like almost all over again. So that was really an awesome way to put it.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Aww that’s dope. That’s dope.

  Zoe Dille  
  And actually I just went to look quickly at it because Jessica and I both have a copy of one of your prints. So I just went, Yeah, it’s like, I don’t, I don’t know if there is a title?

  Jessica Rayne  
  There has to be a name for it. So you had it at your event. It’s the person who is like doing a shot? And then there’s a dove flying over? What’s it called?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Oh yeah. The full title is Let It Fly (Prayer for a Black Boy - Reprise). And it was based off like a earlier work. Like, that’s actually a photograph. Like the guy in the shot, like that was part of the photographic stuff that I did for that show. So like, I actually, I created his costume. We went out. I think we shot that last October probably. And I had him, I had him just like go through the motions of taking a shot and I took that photograph. The dove was added digitally later on. But other than that, it’s sort of unlike, for instance, the Lauryn Hill piece is like all illustrative and collage work. But that particular piece, like is mostly a photograph. But it was based on an earlier piece that I did that was more of like a collage, illustrative piece. Like the concept of shooting the dove like a basketball. Um, and, yeah, it just, it just kind of speaks to that experience I have, you know, a lot of, I just feel like a lot of young men put, a lot of young Black men put like a lot of hope into these very, like tenuous sort of career paths. You know like, whether it’s basketball, or another sport, or music or whatever. It’s like these things that when you break the numbers down, it’s very unlikely. But at the same time these things, they give us hope. They give us something to sort of rally around. They give us, like if you’re trying to become a professional basketball player and it doesn’t end up working out, it might still get you into a school. It might still get you, you know, out of a bad neighborhood. It might still make you that one student that the teacher puts a little extra effort into. Um, I don’t know, like I’ve just seen just in my personal experience, like I’ve just seen it do a lot of things for a lot of people even if the overall dream didn’t work out. It still provided some hope and some positive energy that helped guide that person to a better place than where they were at. Yeah.

  Jessica Rayne  
  Well, it is very inspirational this piece and I think like, it speaks to me in terms of just like, always take your shot. Like that’s what it says to me. Like always - don’t ever not take your shot. Amazing. So we are like, a bit over time. So we did you want to ask a few wrap up questions. Basically, I

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

  Jessica Rayne  
  Amazing. So we are a bit over time. Zoe did you want to ask a few wrap-up questions?

  Zoe Dille  
  I think the only one, what’s next for you Yemi? And like where people who are interested in checking out your stuff, not just online, but like, where could they? I know you’ve got some street art and stuff. So what would you suggest? What’s the intro to Yung Yemi.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Unfortunately, I think like a lot of what I have planned right now is going to be online for the foreseeable future and just kind of like a result of everything that’s going on with COVID. It’s been like put on pause, like a lot of in person - you have physical gatherings and especially in the art world, like planning for those things - like a lot of things are moving on online as a response. Um, so in the immediate future, it’s gonna be probably difficult to see my work in person other than like, I’m doing a mural right now at Artscape Launchpad. So that will be there in a physical space. But outside of that, probably the best way to experience my work will be online. But I am in the studio full time like creating. Like, I’ll be creating a lot of new work this fall and then once things open up a little bit, I’m sure that I’ll be able to connect some opportunities to, you know, to do some new exhibitions in a physical space.

  Zoe Dille  
  And so going back to my Raptors T-shirt, where am I getting one of those?

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Okay so the unfortunate truth about that is like these were designed specifically for the players to wear. So there isn’t a plan right now to make those available to the public. It was just really for the players to have something to wear in the bubble in Orlando and to express where they’re at, to connect to the movement. So the short answer is they’re just not available to the public. And that’s very unfortunate. But like, there’s an outside chance that maybe they might do like a run later on to raise money for a charity or something like that.

  Zoe Dille  
  Okay. All right. I guess I have to suck it up for now.

  Jessica Rayne  
  Well, yeah. This was great. Yemi, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. And we’re looking forward to, you know, how we engage in the future at Hart House through the Black Futures program through the Hip Hop Education Program, the Youth Access Program. But for today, we are good. And this was a great conversation. Thank you so much.

  Adeyemi Adegbesan  
  Absolutely. It’s my pleasure. Thank you guys so much for having me on.

  Jessica Rayne  
  Thank you to our guest, Yung Yemi. Thank you to my colleague, co-host Zoe Dille. Thank you Braeden and Day for helping produce the show. And most of all, thanks to you, our listeners. To find out more visit harthouse.ca or follow us @harthouseuoft. We’re here every Saturday at 7am on CiUT 89.5 FM. And we post all of our episodes under Hart House Stories on SoundCloud. I’m Jessica Rayne signing off as your host for today. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next week.

• 

  Thinking Forward—A Hip Hop History Lesson with Dr. Francesca

  Zoe and Jessica host a Hip Hop Education conversation with Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert to explore the living history within the Canadian hip hop scene.

  Read Transcript

  Jessica
  Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting from Hart House and you're listening to CiUT 89.5 FM and we're grateful to be taking up space on Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm Jessica Rayne, Program Associate at Hart House and I'll be your host for today's show along with my colleague Zoe Dille. Today we'll be discussing all things Hip-hop and social justice with Hip-hop Historian Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert. Dr. D'Amico-Cuthbert is currently doing a Postdoctoral Fellowship at Jackman Humanities Institute at U of T. Expanding on her previous research which focused on Hip-hop culture, identity and Anti-Black practices and systems of power. Her current project will explore the history of the music industry, and how it shaped the collective agency of people who are part of the Hip-hop community in Toronto. We are so delighted to engage with Dr. D'Amico-Cuthbert again as part of the Hart House Hip-hop Education program. So please check out harthouse.ca to learn more about the many Hip-hop Education programs and events that we have for this year. You can also follow us on social media @harthouseuoft.

  Zoe
  Alright, so I want to thank Dr. Francesca D'Amico Cuthbert and I wanted to start out with a few introductory questions and get us all up to speed. So my first question for you is tell us a little bit about what does it mean to be a Jackman Humanities Fellow? And what's your sort of area of research and a little bit about the work that you'll be doing as a Fellow this year at U of T?

  Francesca
  Sure. So the Jackman Humanities Institute, I was invited for the 2020-2021 cohort to look at their general theme which focuses on collectives. And so a lot of people are thinking about collectives in a variety of ways. But in terms of my work, I was invited as part of a role where we're engaged with the community. And so the community of my choice was the Toronto Hip-hop community. And so I guess a little bit about the research that I'm doing there - At the end, close to the end, of my doctoral project, I started thinking about, you know, how I would like to kind of shift the focus of my research, and where my new interests lied. And I found that I was increasingly interested in the nature of systems of power, and how systemic inequalities have taken shape across various historical periods, particularly in relation to Anti-Black practices in various systems of power. 

  And so my current Postdoctoral project at the institute expands on research that I had already been doing about the Toronto Hip-hop community, which to date had really been focused on the role of Canadian rappers in articulating a very specific set of ways of thinking through Black Canadian-ness, and particularly how rappers engaged complex dialogues about the politics of nationhood, citizenship, and what it meant to belong to Canada and what it meant to be Canadian. And so when I started thinking about how to shift my research interests, I decided that I wanted to explore, in greater depth, the history of the racial economy of Toronto’s music industry, and in particular, how it's shaped the collective agency of people who are part of the Hip-hop community in Toronto. And in particular, what it meant to be a practitioner and to have access to resources and revenue streams and also exposure in the marketplace, which historically, for people who are Hip-hop practitioners in Toronto, it has been a very uneven infrastructural support system for the homegrown set of artists here. And so I'm really interested in thinking through why it is the market looks the way it does and why, in some ways, you know, when we look south of the border, there's a really deep and elaborate and profitable American music industry in relation to Hip-hop. And so you know, some of my major questions are Why does the Canadian market not look the same way when we have great talent, and we've had a long history in Toronto Hip-hop culture dating back to the 70s and 80s. 

  Zoe
  Wow. So that is a whole lot to unpack.

  [laughter]

  Francesca
  Sure, yes.

  Zoe
  And actually, luckily enough for us, we do have, throughout the course of this interview, we do have a few questions that kind of circle back to some of the themes you brought up, particularly around this kind of dynamics of power, Canadian national identity. And, and just kind of unpacking a little bit this kind of critical, social and racial justice moment that we're at. But to bring it back to the beginning, let's say, you touched on your PhD research... I want to just flip it over to Jessica to kind of sort of ask you to get into a bit of your early years, like maybe pre or during your PhD years,

  Jessica
  Yeah, Francesca - So I think, you know, we're really so interested in the work that you're doing. Especially as we look at Hip-hop Education, as you know, a way to engage students at Hart House and at U of T. But I wanted to ask you really about that journey, because I think it's very unique and very interesting. So I want to bring it to the beginning and kind of ask you about what was that first introduction to Hip-hop? What was that connection that kind of led you to now pursuing an entire career, an academic career at that? So going through your PhD, getting that PhD, and then also making that career of research around Hip-hop. So you can take it back just to share your journey. What was it that connected you to Hip-hop to make it, you know, kind of like your career calling? 

  Francesca
  Sure. I think there's a couple of things. So interestingly enough, though I consider myself a scholar of Hip-hop, my interest in Black music, and Black music that’s oriented towards social justice, actually began with Janet Jackson. For those of us, you know, not to date myself, but it's my most favorite album,

  [laughter]

  Zoe
  I'm laughing.

  Jessica
  Yes! My sister’s obsessed with Janet Jackson. 

  Francesca
  I'm obsessed. I think the first time I really got into social justice music by Black artists was with Janet Jackson's 1989 album Rhythm Nation 1814. And at the time I was - so I have an artist background, I think is the first thing that really drew me towards culture. Period. So at the time, I was taking dance lessons. And I remember our dance teacher for the year decided that we were, our end, you know, our final piece for the year would be choreographed to Rhythm Nation. And I remember seeing Janet, you know, on television, on Much Music. And I was enthralled, you know, by her talent, but especially by the lyrics in that album. And I know, I wouldn't learn until much later that Janet was inspired by a lot of the news cycle on CNN, you know, when she was writing that album. Things like school shootings across the country that were happening, but also like a lot of R&B Artists at the time, they were looking at the power of Hip-hop culture. You know, ‘89 is also the same year that Public Enemy released Fight the Power. 

  So there was a lot of social consciousness stirring in Black music in the United States as a whole. But Hip-hop was really a source of interest for artists outside of the genre. And so I think my love of Janet and the social consciousness that was a huge part of that album was also paired with the fact that I remember, you know, watching much music as a child and seeing Maestro Fresh Wes on television. And it, you know, at first I didn't realize he was Canadian. And I think, you know, part of what made him so interesting is that within the Hip-hop aesthetic, he really set himself apart in the way that he was dressed. You know, he was dressed as an orchestra conductor, which I think, again, you know, as a young person, you don't always think about how powerful these images are until you begin to deconstruct them in your older years. 

  But even seeing Maestro in that aesthetic was really powerful because it challenged the aesthetics, the Eurocentric aesthetics I should say, of what we imagined an orchestra director to look like - Or sorry, conductor. And so beyond those early years of being a dancer, I also eventually would become a musician and I would go to art school as a high school student. And so I was really immersed in music and dance and theater. And so once I went to university, I also paired that with a love for history, because I'm a trained historian. And so, once, I had dreams of also being a lawyer. I mean, like every young person, you know, what you hope to be shifts and transforms over time. So I was always interested in social justice and culture. And when I decided to apply for my graduate degree, I really wanted to find a way to marry those passions together. And of course, loving Hip-hop as being a part of the Hip-hop generation. I initially did my master's degree, with a focus on the music that came out of the Civil Rights and Black Power movement. So soul and funk in particular. And once I decided to pursue a PhD, I decided that I wanted my years to be focused on Hip-hop, both in the United States, and I've done some work, obviously, on Canada. And then I increasingly became an interested in Hip-hop Education. So I mean, I think that over time, my interests have shifted ever so slightly, but I've always been consistently interested in thinking about the role of culture in social justice movements.

  Zoe
  So I have to say, you've made me rethink Janet Jackson in all new ways. And I'll have to go back to Rhythm Nation. I mean, it was great. I remember that video was just killing it back when, you know, Much Music was the thing and MTV and all of that. And, you know, from a choreographical standpoint, like she's amazing and stuff. But I have never really looked at her as a continuum of a kind of social justice movement, you know. So that's interesting. But the other piece I, and this is kind of what you've just said, kind of leads into the next few questions that we have... So you mentioned you're a trained historian and I feel, and I just kind of wrote this, I wrote down that phrase “trained historian” because I feel, in some ways, that is kind of the role and purpose of Hip-hop as well. Like it's a repository of histories and voices and narratives. And so I just thought that was an interesting, parallel. But to go back to a bit about what you just said about Maestro and seeing him and what he challenged for you visually and not even knowing or kind of immediately assuming, or not assuming that he was Canadian. It kind of leads into this question that I have for you, which is how do you feel that Canadian Hip-hop is both part of the overall Hip-hop narrative? And more specifically, how does it inform the Canadian identity? Specifically, if you feel that it does -  well, I think you do - but in what ways do you see, you know, those relationships?

  Francesca
  I think being part of a larger Hip-hop canon - of course, the early pioneers in Toronto were looking south of the border to places like New York City, and thinking about how they were going to contribute to the culture and construct also a unique narrative. If we look at the early generation, the you know, the architects of Toronto Hip-hop, I think that they were trying in their own way to contribute to the culture. So as to be accepted inside of that Hip-hop narrative. And it's not really until we get to, in some ways, the what was called the second generation, you know, of Hip-hop practitioners in Toronto, where we start to see musicians in particular carving out a very unique narrative. So we think about artists like Kardinal Offishall, who on his song Bacardi slang really tries to set apart Toronto, and into some degrees, Canada more broadly - but Toronto specifically from their American counterparts. 

  So as to just suggest that there's something unique happening in Toronto and Hip-hop being very much a trans local art form, meaning that it's connected, you know, these very various local spaces, you know, Toronto, New York City, Los Angeles, Atlanta - all of these places are connected through Hip-hop culture and the pillars of Hip-hop. But they also have very unique stories to tell based on the places that these artists come from. And so, I think that in a lot of ways, while Toronto artists were trying to be a part of that culture by practicing the forms within Hip-hop, whether it be breakdancing or emceeing, or graffiti writing, or DJing, I think they were also trying to find ways where they could represent themselves and their city. You know, claim their city, first off. First, we know Toronto, of course as the Tdot or the T dot O, and later, you know, become “the six” through Hip-hop culture. And so trying to claim that local space, but also trying to articulate their own identity. So within a larger framework of multiculturalism, I think Hip-hop, which in its early days in Toronto had an incredible amount of Caribbean inflections, whether it be the use of instrumentals, or the vocabulary, you know, used in Hip-hop, a Toronto Hip-hop, or the vernacular even.

  Zoe
  Which is common, sorry to interject but you're just - On that point, I mean, that is really going strong today, because those cultures, Hip-hop and Dancehall have blended. So, almost you know, seamlessly in a lot of ways, right? And you hear, as you say, those particular inflections, or you hear specific words, or you see a lot in here, a lot of patois. You see in here, a lot of Dancehall kind of beats, and it's really interesting to have seen how that has just strengthened, you know, from the early stages that you just referenced up to now where it's completely normalized to have somebody who is not of any kind of Caribbean descent or anything, have some kind of word, some kind of rhythm or be participating or partnering with someone who is from the Dancehall world. It’s completely acceptable now.

  Francesca
  Right. And I think, of course, you know, it's interesting how so many people who, let's say are the younger generation, or who are not familiar with Toronto, imagine that to be the way Toronto speaks. And I think that's an interesting phenomenon. I think, too, for those of us who teach the history of Hip-hop, or engage in Hip-hop education, there's also a potential danger in that because it tends to erase the contributions of Caribbean Canadian artists and to identify the fact that the inflections are in fact, from, you know, routed through the Caribbean. And it's not - it has come to be known as the way Toronto identifies or, you know, speaks, for example. But I think that if we don't do the work to continually remind people that this is a Caribbean contribution to Canadian Hip-hop identity, I think there's a danger of erasing that unique element of, you know, what really sets us apart from other places in the Hip-hop, you know, globally to say, right? 

  Even though places like New York City have comparable, you know, demographics in terms of having large communities from the Caribbean who have migrated to New York City, there's something unique that's happened here in Toronto, where it becomes the forefront of our Hip-hop culture in a way that I think has not necessarily come to be in the same way in New York City. Even though certainly, you know, we could think about a number of Caribbean American artists. You know, whether they be Phife Dawg, you know, from A Tribe Called Quest or Busta Rhymes. They certainly are, they're, you know, they're in that Hip-hop community, but it hasn't been as much as in the forefront as the collective Toronto community. 

  Zoe
  Interesting. So Jessica, hope you're taking note of that with Drake because...

  Francesca
  He’s certainly, you know, a controversial character for some folks.

  Zoe
  Well, yeah, he definitely does exactly what you just said. I mean, he goes to Jamaica a lot, as many artists do and he's collaborated with various artists. And he also has that inflection, he uses that vernacular, etc, etc. Right? And so for the biggest selling artists, not just Canadian, but like worldwide like that, What is that? What does that say? Just to your point, Francesca. So when you meet up with him, Jess, you need to have that conversation.

  [laughter]

  Jessica
  Definitely. I have a lot of questions myself for him.

  Zoe
  Yeah, I know. But just so so much there again. And you know, just trying to make sure we do justice to all these points that you've brought up - you were you were speaking about Michie Mee earlier and about Maestro and I know you have a lot of love for Eternia as it were. And I wondered if you wanted to just kind of say a few words about who she is? And how, why do you think she's important? How she kind of fits in with the narrative of those, those other artists that you've referenced?

  Francesca
  I think, you know, one of the reasons, one of the things I find so incredible about Toronto, is the way that female talent has been not just at the onset of Hip-hop culture - you know, we think about artists like Michie Mee, right? You know, she in a lot of ways represents that, you know, the famous Hip-hop recording, Ladies First. You know, the first of our talent is female. Which I think is a unique attribute of our Hip-hop story in Toronto. The fact that the first artists to really gain traction, it was a woman. And that sets us apart from many other Hip-hop spaces. And I think, you know, whether we think about, you know, artists like Michie Mee or Eternia, or you know, more recently, the ladies of The Sorority - Toronto has always been a city where female rappers in particular have been incredibly strong in terms of their contributions, lyrical or otherwise. And they've always been supported. 

  You know, one of the things that I've loved watching as I've interviewed a lot of architects of the Toronto sound has been the way that male rappers really support female rappers in this city. And just watching that camaraderie is a beautiful thing. And, you know, very specifically when I think about an artist like Eternia, I - one of the things that I really appreciate about her and I certainly tried to model in my work as an academic who's a guest, you know, in Black studies and Hip-hop Studies. In particular, is the way she shows a deeper appreciation for the culture. You know, she always gives artists who set the template, Black artists in particular who set the template, she always gives them their respect and their due and I think she's a great representation of what it means to be a guest in the house of Hip-hop. And it's certainly one of the, she's one of the people that I certainly look to in the culture and try to replicate that way of being.

  Zoe
  Definitely. And, you know, we have to respect people like her and many others and, you know, recognize that we have this incredible talent pool and these incredible voices right in our own backyard, so to speak. And so, given, you know, what you just said there, and all the work that you've done, both your kind of personal journey and now being a fellow at Jackman, why is it you feel that it's important to bring Hip-hop and to bring the areas of research that you're currently involved in into the academic environment? And how do you think that reframes Hip-hop as a culture? Or does it reframe Hip-hop as a culture within the academy?

  Francesca
  I think, yeah, I absolutely do think that it reframes Hip-hop, both in the academy, but in in the broader cultural conversation. I think, for me, studying Hip-hop is important for a variety of reasons. I think, you know, first and foremost, it's important to think through the way that artists experience systems of power. You know, because oftentimes, when we think about musicians or you know, celebrities more broadly, we see them as people of privilege. In particular, the way that we imagine celebrities. And I think it's important to remember that they too are experiencing systems of power, particularly when they're so visible in the public eye. 

  And so for me, it's been really important to look at Hip-hop culture and think through the ways in which they, the practitioners I should say, have engaged with the culture industry, and how the structures and mechanisms of power within culture industries, whether we're talking about the US or Canada, have supported the art that these practitioners have put forward or fail to support, and have even challenged these artists in terms of their politics and their identities and what that looks like. Because that's often being done in the public eye for us to see. 

  I think in particular, in the Canadian context - and one of the reasons you know, that I've been driven to focus on my upcoming work on the music industry, in particular I think historically, when we think about the academic work about the Black music tradition in Canada, so much of the attention in the literature, whether we're thinking about a discipline like history or other fields, such as you know, communications, or music studies even, there has tended to be a focus on rock music in particular. And I think one of the reasons for that is because it tends to be considered a trope of Canadian-ness in a way that other forms of culture have not. 

  And so, you know, one of the things that I'm interested in, is thinking about Hip-hop culture. And how studying this community and their contributions to Canadian culture more broadly, can tell us a lot more about the history of broadcasting in this country and the protection strategies that have been used to protect a you know, “Canadian culture”, you know, what exactly does that look like? Especially in the strategies that have been implemented by institutions like the Canadian Radio Television and Telecommunications Commission, which is also known to us as the CRTC. And in particular, strategies, like CanCon, you know. So I'm really trying to think through what CanCon means to the nation. And I think when we look at Black music, in particular in Hip-hop, and Hip-hop especially, what we see is that these protectionist strategies have have failed really to incorporate that important contribution to the country. And they have, those strategies have uniquely affected the work of Black artists and their ability to generate a thriving platform that showcases their artistic contributions.

  Zoe
  I feel like what you said, it just struck a nerve there so much, because we do look at - we are kind of told in many different ways through you know, dominant culture that classical and rock n’ roll are the things that, you know, define what Canadian culture is. And yet, you're so right about Black voices. I would also add Indigenous voices, obviously, to that, and a really interesting and informative, you know, Hip-hop cultural scene within the Indigenous communities. But that both of those communities, what they're talking about is actually, you know, the alternate or the underlying kind of history of all of Canada, right? 

  Franscesca 

  Absolutely. 

  Zoe 

  And the one that you don't get in the textbook. And the one that now at this particular moment in time, there's a lot of push back on like, whose stories are being told? What truths  and you know? And just yeah, it's just really interesting to look at it through the prism of like, Ken Coleman, and through the prism of like CanCon and what culture is promoted and what isn't and what's excluded. 

  Francesca
  And I think too, you know, what we also need to remember, that’s not specific necessarily to any type of geography, but it's that Hip-hop culture as a whole - and, you know, I look primarily at Rap music - but Hip-hop as a whole is a way to create and project forward a counter narrative. And so, you know, in my early dissertation work, when I was completing my doctorate, I was very interested in thinking through what is the story that Hip-hop tells us about the United States, because my early work was on the US. And when we look at Hip-hop, we start to see the nation in very different ways. We start to see systems of power in different ways because Hip-hop is a story of people who are disempowered at very many intersections, whether we're talking about race, class, gender, sexuality, you know, different geographical spaces. 

  And so I think if we incorporate the stories of Hip-hop into larger narratives about broadcasting history, or the Canadian culture industry, what we are going to see are these stories that are exacerbated by different forms of oppression. You know, it's one of the reasons why, you know, in the last month or so we've seen the introduction of groups such as Advance, which is a Black music collective that is trying to address a number of Anti-Black, systemic issues that are in the music industry. And so when we archive the stories of Hip-hop in the broader Canadian culture industry, we will be able to see that this isn't just part of the present or the contemporary moment. This has a historical trajectory dating back, you know, in the Canadian culture industry for many decades. 

  And so I think it's important to do that work because so often when we're talking about systems of power in particular relation to Anti-Blackness, there seems to be this continuing narrative that circulates that these are new instances. When in fact those of us who have been studying and for people who have experienced systemic oppression, they will tell you that this is not new at all. And so doing that archival work is really important, too. Educating the public about the long history of Anti-Black racism in Canada. And the way of course it appears with anti-Indigenous racism in the settler colonial context.

  Jessica
  I'm just here listening to both you and Zoe go at it. [laughter]  

  And I think it's a great conversation. Sorry, but I have all these questions to ask. It all sounds just so amazing. And like, the way you're articulating this. It's just bringing it all to, like home. So, Francesca, the question that I have, in particular is around when you mentioned Eternia and you know, we really respect Eternia as well and love working with her. But you talked about how she, you know, recognizes that she's a guest in the space. And I wanted to talk about the kind of the research that you do and entering a space that you necessarily, you know, are not affiliated with, in a sense of being a musician, or you are a musician, but I mean, Hip-hop artists, or being a part of that kind of experience. So I wanted to ask around, like, how that is for you and your position, and the powers that you hold as an academic and being, you know, visibly white, highly educated? How is it for you to navigate these spaces, build trust, and negotiate these relationships to tell the stories of the people that you are interacting with?

  Francesca
  That's a great question. I think - so when I began doing my doctoral research, which was primarily focused on the ways in which rappers articulated their identities. So not just being musicians, of course, but also, you know, my full focus of my research was really on Black rappers in particular, and those who identified with urban spaces and working class identities in particular, and working poor identities. And so one of the ways in which I try to address, you know, the fact of course that I am not American, you know, first and foremost - I, as a visibly white person, I do not share the Black experience, you know, certainly not the Black American experience. And so, I think one of the most important things to do as a researcher who may be an insider, in some ways - you know, the fact that I'm a musician - but you know, I am an outsider in a lot of other ways. 

  And so one of the important ways to rectify or address this head on for me was to always center the voices of the artist. And so their voices, whether it was in interviews, whether it was in the music, whether it was in various other archival sources, was to put their voices front and center and to recognize that as an academic, you are also always collaborating. You, as a historian, I should say, you're always collaborating with those in your study. And so I wanted to center their voices. But I also wanted to do a lot of listening. And I think in general, that's how we can move beyond, you know, outside of the Academy. 

  I think that's one of the important elements of being part of any social movement. You know you have to know when to speak, and you have to know when to sit down and listen. And so a lot of my work, of course, centers around recordings, and I had to do a lot of listening. I spent a year and a half just doing archival work, listening to records between you know, the mid 1970s through to the mid 1990s. And just listening to what the artists were saying, what were their central concerns? How are they articulating themselves? What exactly were they articulating? You know, what were the social and political ideologies that emerged from that work? And what I found was that through their voices, rappers were using culture and Hip-hop culture, in particular, as a politically useful battleground to unmask persistent forms of coloniality in the afterlife of American slavery. 

  And so I wanted to think about Hip-hop culture, not just in the moment of the late 20th century, but I wanted to think about how these artists were part of a long Black music tradition that connected back to the period of enslavement because I saw that there were patterns that were beginning to emerge, in terms of what they were saying, and how their commentary was connected to the commentary of their musical predecessors. And what I found was that as rappers began to embolden their consciousness in a variety of formats, whether it was about class and capitalism, or gender representation, or the life that they were experiencing as a racialized person in the United States - I found that Rap became a place where they were able as artists to transform dispositions of power by narrating to the American public through Rap music, in particular, that Blackness in the United States had been continuously framed in discourse as terrifying. Even while at the same time, Black people and Black communities broadly, were continuously subjected to not just racism, I, you know, in my work, I call it Anti-Black terrorism in the form of things such as police brutality, or vigilante violence that is enacted, you know, in communities, for example, between neighbors, as you know, as an example. 

  And so in my work, I looked at how Rap music became a form of expression where Black artists who, you know, were not politicians, and you know, capital P politics, but where they can vocalize their demands about any number of issues, but also rupture dehumanizing discourses that had existed of Blackness prior to the late 20th century. And not just in that contemporary moment. And also, in doing so, reveal abuse of systems of power, and ultimately undermine prevalent myths that existed in the late 20th century about America being a nation that is colorblind - which, of course, you know, being that we're in the 21st century we know has continued, in terms of a practice. And so in my work, I begin by looking at how Hip-hop culture was initially constituted in terms of race, gender, and class identities. And then I proceed to think about how Hip-hop fared once local, state and federal governments responded to the various critiques that were coming out of Hip-hop culture, whether it was their reflections on mass incarceration and the war on drugs, or other issues, such as Anti-Black policing practices, strategies used in electoral politics, the way that the education system is shaped and how it impacts young Black people. And of course, capitalism and what impact it has in terms of the way that urban spaces are constituted, and the experiences of being poor in particular.

  Jessica
  Wow. So what what I'm hearing is like, yeah, it's really a collaborative and reflective process with researching and working with the artists that are included in this research, and what comes out of it. I wanted to also just ask, and, you know, when you're doing this, what is the hope out of the research? Is that like established at the beginning with those that you collaborate with, or those who are part of doing this research what the hope of whatever is being created, what it's for, or what will come out of it?

  Francesca
  I think that changes over the course of your research. You certainly have ideas about what you're hoping to achieve. But I think you know, primarily as a historian, we use the archive, you know, the power of the archive. And for me, part of my work also challenges the notion of the archives. Because in a lot of ways, the archive is shaped by colonial thinking and practices. And I wanted to think beyond the archive, beyond these institutional spaces that I think a lot of times, don't properly capture the voices of everyone in any given society. And so for me, I was using items that have yet to be archived, in part, because I'm doing a living history. 

  So whether it was interviewing the actual artists, listening to their music, watching recorded performances, you know, reading their liner notes. I watched a lot of congressional hearings, you know, because I was thinking about the way that Rap was taken up at different levels of government. I think that over the course of my research, my hopes for the project changed in important ways. But I think once I reached the end point of the doctoral process, for me, there were really three things that I hoped people would take away from the research, I think. 

  First, it was really important for me to highlight, through my work, the role of culture in the lives of young people because I think oftentimes, we forget that Hip-hop, the architects of Hip-hop, were teenagers. They were kids. And so one of the takeaway points is that Hip-hop became a powerful tool for young people who often in society, we tend not to listen to young people. We tend to discount their thinking, their observations, the way that they're taking the world in. And so for me, I wanted to really respect the knowledge of young people and the ways in which they use Hip-hop to critically analyze and in effect respond to systems of power that were really crushing them in the late 20th century. 

  I think the second thing for me was that I really wanted to create a piece of work that presented nuanced readings of Hip-hop beyond what tends to happen in public discourse - which is that Hip-hop is often characterized as an art form that promotes violence and substance abuse and narrow representations of gender and sexuality. And I really wanted to create a piece that helps readers understand the nuances of Hip-hop. And not just the nuances but to treat the form with respect because I think Hip-hop culture has contributed a tremendous amount, not just to the United States, or to North America, but globally as well. 

  And I think the third and perhaps for me, the most important point that I wanted to come across in my work was that I wanted people who are reading to understand is that rappers are knowledge producers. They are public intellectuals and they are entrepreneurs. And I think throughout the history of Hip-hop culture, whether we're talking about in the United States or elsewhere, these young people have time and time again demonstrated to the public their acute ability to think critically about the world that they inhabit. They have the ability to contextualize their experiences within much longer histories of race and power in particular. And I think in a lot of ways, Hip-hop offers us, not of course in all forms of Hip-hop, but certainly in a number of forms of Hip-hop or sub genres, it offers us a way to think forward about the societies that we live in and strategies that we can use to unravel, and when Hip-hop is at its very best, strategies to decolonize our current conditions. And I think that certainly applies to the U.S. as well as in other places across the globe.

  Zoe
  I think um, that is such a, as we pretty much near the top of the hour here, that is such a kind of beautiful and hopeful message because that was kind of going to be my closing comments, last question to you about what is kind of like the - where is the hope in Hip-hop? And how, what do you think it can aspire to, particularly in this really challenging, you know, moment and when there's a lot of community trauma that is coming up and death and injustice and all kinds of stuff. So I think looking and positioning Canadian Hip-hop, Hip-hop writ large, and the people that are producing it as kind of knowledge keepers and cultural producers, as you just said, is really - it's not something that we often think about. We think about what those kind of, you know, high artistic practices that are from a European perspective that we've been told, like, these are the only things that are of value, right. And so as you said, sort of time and time again, I think Hip-hop has shown that it can produce a more informed and a more true reflection of what is going on and a true a count of history. So there's that kind of counter narrative, but it's also the best teacher about how to continue this decolonizing work.

  Francesca
  Absolutely. I think especially in the contemporary moment, in terms of a number of our social justice concerns, I think Hip-hop is as much, you know, political commentator, as it is historian and that's why I find it such an interesting form. I think, in the current moment, with all that we're facing, Hip-hop, at least as I've seen, you know, when I've been looking at some of the musical contributions across 20, you know, the year 2020 – I've really been thinking about, you know, what are the benefits that we can draw from Hip-hop? You know, what does it teach us? What can we draw from it, whether we're in the academy or not? Because I think it teaches everyone in unique ways. 

  But for me, you know, some of the things I've been thinking about is that I think one of the things that Hip-hop does is it continuously throughout its history has always connected the contemporary to the historical. You know, this is the way it is, a historian. So if I think about, you know, and I'm going to use some examples in hopes that also it will draw people to listen to these great recordings. But if I think about songs like 8:46 by Mr. Lif, who's associated with Eternia, but Mr. Lif and Stu Bangas - I think about how, you know, obviously, when you look at the title of the song, it's gesturing to the murder of George Floyd at the hands of police. But I think what the song also does for listeners is that it historicizes for listeners the ongoing dehumanization, incarceration, and brutalization of Black people in the United States at the hands of police and people in power, and contextualize it within a much longer history of enslavement and segregation. 

  I think also in its function, as a historian, Hip-hop also helps young people who are on the ground, you know, as activists or wherever they find themselves being socially engaged. It also teaches young people and society more broadly, about its connection to a much longer Black liberation struggle. So if we think about a song like Black Thought’s recent release, Thought vs Everybody - he helps listeners think about the different ideologies in Hip-hop and how they're connected to a much longer Black freedom movement, and more broadly, the Black radical tradition. So you know, the song has interspersed speech recordings from people like Marcus Garvey, who led the Pan Africanist movement, Black Panther Huey Newton, other folks like Amiri Baraka of the Black Arts Movement, Khalid Muhammad of the Nation of Islam, or, you know, literary giant, James Baldwin, and even prison abolitionist, Angela Davis, who, of course, has been in the news talking about abolishing the police or certainly cutting back their funding. 

  But also, I think one of the things that Hip-hop has done in this particular moment is contextualize the uniqueness of 2020. So I think about, you know, because there have been many historical moments where we have seen similar instances of police brutality, but society has not always reacted in the way that they have reacted in 2020. So I think about songs like Lockdown by Anderson .Paak. And in that recording he talks a lot about the response of people, you know, protesters who are reacting, of course, to instances of police brutality. But what it means to do that in this unique moment of COVID-19. And I think, you know, one of the things that comes across in the song is that he's saying this is a moment of pause. And it's made people reflect on the brutality of policing in a way probably that they have not done for a long period of time, in terms of different cross sections of people. And they've done so in a way that thinks about Anti-Black policing alongside existing issues such as poverty, unemployment, and health disparities. You know, all of which have been exacerbated by the pandemic. 

  But I think perhaps one of the most hopeful and yet still, you know, classic Hip-hop styles, critical ways of thinking that Hip-hop has continued to introduce to us in 2020 is to think critically about electoral politics and the role that that can play in transforming society, especially as the U.S. moves towards their upcoming federal elections. So I think about, you know, one of my favorite artists at the moment is Locksmith, who some people may not know, but he comes out of California. And so I think about a song like his recent release called Black Holocaust, or even, you know, one of my favorite groups, Public Enemy, who recently released a song called State of the Union. And when I think about these two songs in conversation, I think about how Hip-hop can also help us bring about a call to action to take electoral politics seriously and to consider the role that citizens can play in overturning structures of power. I think so often people think that their voices are not heard, and that there are avenues where their voices can be heard. 

  And so songs like these help us think about the power of the vote, in particular, in the United States to cast out the current occupier, who, you know, who I will not name of the White House. You know, who I think Public Enemy, rightly, you know, frames him as a dictator and a fascist who should be feared in terms of what he has done in the US during the course of his presidency, but also the potentials of what he could do if re-elected to a second term. But what I think about the Locksmith song in particular, I also find it fascinating, you know, that while they're talking about electoral politics and what voting can do, Locksmith also articulates a very real and long-standing distrust that racialized communities, not just the United States, but in other places as well, have had in terms of the relationship to the political system. Which he argues have continually failed to respond to the needs and demands of Black people. And so while he's certainly talking about electoral politics, he's also asking the public to consider the complexities of voting. And to be critical of both sides, you know, if especially in the United States where you know, so much of the conversation is about Republicans and Democrats, or Liberals and Conservatives. And he's certainly asking people to be critical, even of the Liberals, and especially Neo-liberals, who in a political campaign all tend to mobilize race in the conversation, in part to generate or recruit voters to the fold. And so he asks people to even think critically about whether those intentions are genuine or disingenuous. And to use that knowledge to press the candidates to speak to them in a genuine way. And ask them about what they need, and then to mobilize in that way to do that work for the communities that are putting them in office. 

  So I think in 2020, Hip-hop is doing a lot of things for us. It's not just helping us learn about the contemporary. But it's also reminding us that this is a cyclical and continuous pattern, you know. The things that we're seeing before us, and that we need to always be critical, we need to question the society we're living in. And a lot of that involves taking pause and being reflective, which I think happens so often in the context of Hip-hop culture. And one of the reasons that as someone who loves Hip-hop and Rap music in particular, I'm so grateful for the artists that do that work.

  Zoe
  I know in our last, one of our last conversations, you and I and Jessica had, we were talking a bit about basketball and the Vince Carter effect and Hip-hop and what the kind of convergence of like his rise and basketball and many of the Canadian Hip-hop artists as well as some U.S. artists that all of a sudden started to kind of take note of Toronto at that time. And I'm reminded of that, again, with the work that the NBA is doing around electoral reform, and how vocal they're being about that, the players, not the NBA as an association. But really important that that's one thing that bubbled up and then just another quick thing was just I love how this is obviously a moment for reflection and a moment for pause for all of us. And you're right in that the racial injustices and the murders and police brutality and all of that that has come to light is also being now looked at through the lens of all these other disparities, as you pointed out. You know, class and race and ethnicity and everything else is being looked at. So it's a, I think, quite a unique moment. 

  And my last comment to what you said was just kind of recognizing that for whatever reason, you know, at this moment, I feel like there is, a lot of people are drawing for a lot of the elder statesman voices of the Black Power movement. And you went through a few like Marcus Garvey. Recently, Angela Davis. Amiri Baraka, et cetera, and James Baldwin, and I think it's great that there is this both in education and a renaissance of those voices for new and like up and coming generations of people that are just kind of trying to understand this space that we’re in. That throw in a Langston Hughes and all kinds of other people that, you know, we could spend all day on those. So but I think it's great that they, they are getting kind of a second look. And it's hard. It's hard. You know, I feel hopeful when I see that, but I also feel very frustrated, because a lot of them are talking about things that were happening in their time, and we're talking about the same things, but on that note, I'll just ask Jess if you have any closing comments, before we wrap up?

  Jessica
  Francesca, it's always great speaking with you. I think, you know, especially when you were talking about the power of Hip-hop in education, I think there's still a lot more that needs to be done in that regard as legitimizing Hip-hop as a, you know, as something in the classroom, as a tool for engagement and self expression. And I think we see that in the work that we're trying to do here, but across the board I know even as a Hip-hop scholar, for yourself, I could assume that there, there's also barriers within that. Just the study of Hip-hop at the academic level in the PhD program, and some of the resistance and barriers there. So I think overall, like just Hip-hop in education is still something to continue to kind of - it's almost like you have to prove it and legitimize it because there's a lot of pushback against it. Thank you for sharing all of these songs that some of them I've never heard of. Yeah, so great conversation. So -

  Braeden
  Could I ask a question? Is there time? Um, I think when a lot of us think of a historian, we just think of someone who exclusively deals in the past. But who better to look forward than someone who's well versed in the past. And so I'm curious, what are some things that you're seeing or noticing about, or like shifts or trends that are emerging in Hip-hop specifically in Canada?

  Francesca
  Well, I think one of the songs actually that I was recently listening to is a song by an artist named TOBi, who I believe comes out of Brampton, if I'm correct. And it is a song called 24 Toronto Remix. And it features a number of Canadian artists - Shad, Jazz Cartier, and Haviah Mighty, who I think is one of the most powerful Toronto artists that we have right now. And I think one of the things that this song for me highlights is the shift, not just in Hip-hop, but in the general cultural conversation that we're having in Canada, is that these artists, and of course, you know, Hip-hop has been talking about structural oppression in relation to policing for a very long time, even when we're thinking about our Canadian artists, right? But this song in particular, I think what it does is it reminds the Canadian public, that Anti-Black policing is not merely an American issue. And I think this is a really important shift, especially as we're hearing you know, calls to defund the Toronto Police Services. 

  Because I think so often when we tend to talk about race and oppression, and, you know, various disparities that are impacted, or are an outcome of racial disparities, I think so often we tend to think of that as an American problem, you know, and that we're the good neighbors to the north. That tends to be the prevalent master narrative or discourse. And through recordings like this, I think, Rap artists in particular, challenge the public again to think very critically about the way that Canada constitutes itself, both inside of its borders and projects itself internationally as a country that apparently does not have racial problems. Which, you know, is not true whether we study the history of Canada, or not. So we know this has certainly not been the case, historically. 

  The fact of the matter is, is that race continues to trouble Canada into the present day. And so these artists, I think, really put that conversation back on the table and force the Canadian public to treat this conversation seriously. And I think, in the Canadian context, this is a really important shift in the cultural conversation, because so often, you know, whether we're talking about in Canadian classrooms or in political discourse, there is a failure to really think critically about the ways that Canada treats racialized populations, whether we're talking about Black communities across the country, or in Indigenous communities as well. And to really think about Canada as a settler colonial nation. And this is the work I think that Canadian Hip-hop artists continue to do so powerfully. And in the larger context of Hip-hop, I think, really presses us to think about how all of these moments are connected to historical practices that continue to cycle moving forward. 

  That said, I think that one of the things that has been so interesting to watch is to see the cross section of people who are coming into the fold. Who are deciding for themselves that they are committed to learning and understanding the issues and to doing something about that. And I think, you know, as an educator, one of the things that I often say to my students is that I don't like to punish people for not being in the conversation. But I do, once they are part of the conversation, I think it's important to honor the stage where every, you know, the stage in which everybody is at. Whether it's taking a class, reading a book, walking in the streets, you know, being part of an organization. However you find yourself involved and committed to the various social justice issues that are of concern to you. 

  I think that as a society, we all have to work in our different lanes. And our contributions as a result will be different. But the more pressure that we collectively put on these systems that have power, the closer we'll get. And of course, it's incremental. That's one of the things that history teaches us - that change is always happening. Sometimes it's at a slower pace than we would like. But these incremental changes are going to move us closer to the world that we want to inhabit, if we're lucky to see that world. And, you know, some days, I'm a little, I'm a little less sure if that will happen in my lifetime. But I certainly know that with continuous work, I hope to leave this world in a better condition than which I arrived in it. And I think that's a goal that we should all be collectively striving towards. 

  Thank you for the question. It was - thank you for all these questions. I'm so happy to spend time with you all. Really. I think that Hart House is doing a lot of great work around Hip-hop in particular and Hip-hop education. And, you know, kind of off of some of the comments, the closing comments that you all made, even though it has for so many people who do Hip-hop studies, it's been a struggle for us to legitimize our work in the academy, I think that we stand on the shoulders of a lot of academics before us. I think about people like Tricia Rose, Mark Anthony Neal, for example, all of whom have done, you know - and even here in Canada, Mark Campbell, Rinaldo Walcott - all of whom have done really important work, to create a space for those of us in these current generations of scholars who are committed to Hip-hop and legitimizing it as the source of knowledge. 

  And you know, and we continue to do the same for people who will follow after us. So I think the path for hip, the path for Hip-hop cities is great. We just have to keep going. And I think the work that you all are doing it at Hart House is really important to legitimizing the study of Hip-hop and the role that it plays in the lives of the students that were committed to the role that it plays in their lives. And what it can teach us in the academy, because I think we can glean so much from Hip-hop, you know, whether it's talking about Rap music, or breakdancing, whatever the form is, there's so much that it gives us and so there's so much more to do. So thank you all for speaking with me today. I appreciate you.

  Jessica
  Thank you to our guests, Dr. Francesca D'Amico-Cuthbert. Thank you to my co-host Zoe Dille. Thank you Braeden and Day for helping produce the show. And most of all, thanks to you, our listeners. We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram @HartHouseStories. You can also find more information around the Hip-hop Education events for the academic year at harthouse.ca or on social media @harthouseuoft. We're here every Saturday at 7am on CiUT 89.5 FM and we post all of our episodes under Hart House Stories on SoundCloud. Our intro outro music was composed by Dan Driscoll. I’m Jessica Rayne signing off as your host for today. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week. 

• 

  The Questions of Where and When We Belong

  Mica and Ari invite their friends Kashi and Selva to discuss their experiences of loneliness, belonging and feeling at home while growing up in the diaspora.

  Read Transcript

  [intro music plays]

  Mica
  Hello, and welcome to The West Meeting Room. We're broadcasting from the Maproom studios in Hart House and you're listening to CiUT 89.5 FM, the sound of your city. We're grateful to be taking up space on Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm Mica and I'll be your host for today's show. Today is all about identity and belonging. And we'll be featuring an interview with Kashi Syal, the arts and culture editor for The Varsity. Afterwards, we'll be listening to Ari, a co-producer of the show, interview her friend Selva Lakshmi.

  My name is Mica. I'm a third-year student studying psychology and minoring in Latin American Studies, and Semiotics and Communication. I'm originally from Miami, but my family’s from Uruguay and I'm half Chinese. So, I've lived in quite a few cities and the topics that surround diaspora and transnational studies really interests me because I feel like you and I are both sort of in the crux of, of the subject matter. And I think I want to start off the conversation today by really asking, like, why did we choose to study in Canada?

  Kashi
  Amazing, so as you can probably tell from the accent, I'm from London, England. I grew up there, I was born there. However, my dad's Canadian. When he was about three or four, he immigrated from Kenya to Canada, a small, tiny town in the north of BC. And my mom at a similar age moved from Kenya to London, where she then grew up. And then when my parents met, my dad moved to London. And he's been there for 25 years.

  And what's really interesting is that my family's Kenyan Indian, but we are, we are Punjabi, that's our cultural background. And that causes a juxtaposition. I know, that's a real issue for my mom, and I've never been to Kenya. I don't really perceive it as a homeland. But both my parents do, whereas I have a much greater link to the Punjab. In terms of coming to study in Toronto, I've often felt a really big disconnect between the Canadian side of my life. We only ever came here on holidays. Tt was very expensive. Growing up, my parents don't have that much money. So, it was an infrequent trip. And I'm very, very British, probably it’s, being from London is a massive part of my identity. And I just knew that if I didn't come to study in Canada, I would probably lose that. And I would never come and move here, I would never get a job here because London is all encompassing. You very much commit to the city. I also knew that I always wanted to study in a big city, which is why I chose Toronto. I chose Toronto over Montreal and over Vancouver because that, well, Montreal, I hear it's very, very cold, I didn't do very well with cold. And Vancouver is really far away. So, I wanted not to have that much space in between my family and my university life. And Toronto is a great city. I think lastly, It's also cheaper. I am a domestic student in terms of tuition. So, whilst I have, whilst I've had a lot of the international challenges of long distance, flights, time, distance, time difference, rather, I do pay less money than I would at home. And that's a really big bonus coming out of university with less debt is something that not everyone has the privilege to have. So, I'm very, very lucky in that regard.

  Mica
  I know and I agree with you. I think I wanted similar things from my university experience. I wanted to be in a big city. But I was definitely attracted to Toronto, because it is only a three-hour flight away from Miami. It is honestly closer to South America than Europe is. And that is a big deciding factor because we are far away from our friends from our family. And that can be really scary. And I think both you and I are sort of entering a new stage in our lives where we're looking for jobs, we're looking at grad school, and just contrasting sort of the experience that you and I have had is really different. I'm really worried about getting a visa and being able to stay in Canada, but because I have an American passport, I know that comes with so much privilege. And my partner who is Punjabi, and he only has an Indian passport, like he is coming into the situation with extreme levels of like anxiety and stress. And there's sort of this feeling of like temporality in his stay here, because he's really in the hands of his next employer. And I think because I have an American passport, you know, like, I'm not as stressed out. And then you on the other hand, you know, you have that incredible flexibility of being able to to live in Europe and to work well, not with Brexit. Yeah, I have an Italian passport. So, I wouldn't be able to work in, or I wouldn't be able to work as easily now in England, I think. But like, you know, these passports, I think, give us so much mobility, whether that's economic, social, cultural even, right. Like, I don't know, I hold three passports, you hold two. And I think that shapes our understanding of the world very differently. So, I think this is a good segue to sort of talk about our different identities. I know that I've always struggled with being half Chinese and half Latina. And I'm from Uruguay, which is a very, very small country in Latin America, and I haven't really found a Latino community in Toronto, much less the University of Toronto. So, I think a lot of my experience as an international student has been sort of around being able to explain who I am while doing justice to where I'm from. But that also leaves me in a position of who am I to be representative of Uruguay, when I'm half Chinese? Which is a very weird thing for Uruguay, very abnormal, let's say. And also, I grew up in Miami, you know, and I, I'm privileged enough to be studying abroad, to be paying international tuition. So, I don't represent really what Uruguay is. But, yeah, and I think there's so many ways that I haven't been able to find the community here, which has left me, I don't know, I think alone in a lot of situations.

  Kashi
  I think that's really interesting. I think community is a very, very interesting point that you bring up, because something that my cousins all really experienced when they went to university, and they went to universities in the UK, London universities, Birmingham, and then Cambridge. And one thing that the UK really has is big Indian communities. And they really work very hard to celebrate these communities within the student body. And I don't know whether I missed the flyer in first year, but I just couldn't find kind of at the India society at University of Toronto. And it wasn't until you started dating your partner, who is Punjabi from India, that I actually started to meet other Indians, other Punjabis, people from Pakistan, people from South India, people from the United Arab Emirates. Like people who looked like me, because that was something I really missed in my first year. And it's something that I think was a big disconnect, because a lot of my friends and family from back home, obviously are south Asian. And I often felt there was a big lack of community, I felt isolated. I think when it comes to being Punjabi at University of Toronto. I just didn't find anyone like me in that regard. And it's lonely I think, because I think that there's, often you can be as close to someone as you want to be. And we're living in a globalized world where everyone is intermingling with, we live in a big melting pot, you know, something that my friend from home says, she says, Oh, you know, 2020 are you really dating if it's not an interracial relationship kind of thing? Everyone knows everything about everything. But there is a sort of a mental roadblock. I think people feel when their culture isn't appreciated and isn't understood. And whether this is right or wrong, whether it's progressive or not progressive, you do want, you do want to be around people who you don't need to explain yourself to. And race, ethnicity, culture. These are things that we don't want to have to explain. And these are things that we're tired of explaining. British culture you can explain to, people get it. Punjabi culture, a bit harder. I'm sure being half Latin and half Chinese is something that you are very, very exhausted of trying to reconcile in your head and trying to explain to other people, especially when there's no one around you, who says, Hey, I get that, hey, I see that.

  Mica
  And sort of bouncing back to what you were saying - since I've known you for a very long time, you've been with me my whole undergrad degree. And I've been, I've had, I've been dating my partner for a year now. And he's Punjabi, he came here from India. And I always I think you and I always talk about this, like the different degrees of authenticity, which a podcast called Code Switch by NPR calls it “racial imposter syndrome”, where, you know, in front of me, who you know, I'm not Indian, and I'm from Latin America, I'm even American. You do feel very Punjabi. And you are definitely a pillar of knowledge, a pillar of authenticity. But then sometimes in front of my boyfriend and his friends, you do, I think, struggle with feeling authentic in that space, although at the same time, they do validate your identity to the outside. So, I kind of want to know, how you speak to that. And like, yeah,

  Kashi
  That's such a good question. And such an interesting point. I definitely feel that way, I think. And it's more, as with everything I think, is always more about you than it is about other people. Because your boyfriend and his friends, they just see me as Punjabi for them, it doesn't really matter that I'm from London, it doesn't matter that I didn't grow up in the Punjab. They're just like, Oh, she's one of us, have a beer kind of thing. Whereas I do feel that big, emotional disconnect. And that's what it is. It's an emotional disconnect. And I found that even when I went to India, for the first time, there was a safety that when I went when I visited Punjab, that I have never felt before a sense of belonging, that I just was like, I like it here. I know I've mentioned I'm obsessed with being from London, like London is very much my home. I've never felt other in London. I felt I felt other in various places in the UK, but not in London. And I think that comes from not speaking the language. I think that's a big barrier. Whilst I understand Punjabi to a superficial level, understand Hindi to a superficial level, conduct a conversation with my grandparents, I'm not bilingual. I do not know the ins and outs, the rhythms of the language. And that's something that troubles me deeply troubles me. It's something that I've been working on trying to fix. I went to India when I was 18, and stayed there for three months, and I came back pretty fluent, because I already went in with a basic understanding. Obviously, I then forgot it. And being with that group with Shiv and his friends reminds me of everything I feel like I've missed out on and also makes me feel like an imposter. Because it makes me think apart from the color of my skin, and the fact that I celebrate Dewali, and I eat Indian food. What about me can I really say that I'm Punjabi?

  Mica
  Yeah, and I definitely agree. I see that within my own family. I'm half Chinese. But my father was born in Uruguay to Chinese parents, and they had to assimilate to a culture that was predominantly white, Latino, and, in many ways unforgiving. And my father doesn't speak Mandarin. I don't speak Mandarin. And I think the only takeaway I have of my Chinese culture is food. And it's interesting how I think there's like cultural artifacts that are even commodities that come out of a culture, come out of a country that help us feel like we're part of it. I always come back with my Advil that I like, and some spices that I use that you can't really get here. And in a way it is because I like how they taste. But I think it's also when you open my pantry when I have friends over, it is a validation of who I am. And there's that sense of nostalgia every time I see it. Not necessarily because maybe it was something that was used in my house, but at least it's something that points directly to Uruguay.

  Kashi
  Yeah, I completely agree with that. I bring home, bring back to Toronto a lot of British Indian snacks. Things I ate growing up, and things that I've grown very fond over, since moving to Toronto. My grandmother, when I was younger, she would have saunf, which is they're basically roasted fennel seeds, and she had them in her pantry. And I remember being little, and we'd all sneak, my cousins, and I would sneak to her pantry. And we'd eat the saunf because you know, you weren't really meant to have a lot of it. And it's a small jar, you have it to aid digestion after a meal. You probably had it at the end of a meal in an Indian restaurant. My grandmother knows that we're all obsessed with it. So, she gives me a massive jar. And all my cousins a massive jar, whenever we go to university. And I just, whenever I eat it, it makes me feel very connected not only to home, but also to my Indianness. And similarly, I don't eat Canadian chocolate. I will bring back bars of British, it is different. It really is different. And I've written about British bars, and that's the only chocolate I would eat. I don't really buy chocolate here. And biscuits I bring home, like digestives, chocolate fingers, things that you can get here, but there is a disconnect. And I think that's the key. You know, there's British aisles in supermarkets. But it's something about the act of bringing, where you feel like you're bringing a part of yourself somewhere that you don't feel fully whole.

  [music break]

  Mica
  And welcome back. You're listening to The West Meeting Room on CiUT 89.5. FM, the sound of your city. You'll be listening to Ari's interview with her friend Selva Lakshmi. Stay tuned.

  Ari
  Hi, I'm Ari. And today on The West Meeting Room, I have a very special guest here to talk about what it's like to move around and what it's like to have identity, your own identity in different places that you've lived. And yeah, this guest is one of my closest childhood friends, and has been on the show before, on our food episode. So, if you'd like to introduce yourself, go ahead.

  Selva

   

  Hi, my name is Selva Lakshmi. And yeah, I moved to Canada when I was nine years old. I turned 10 here. And before that I actually lived in Sharjah, United Arab Emirates for six years. And originally, yeah, I was born in India, where I lived for three years. So, I've moved around a lot and last year actually spent most of the year living abroad. I started in Nepal, and then just visiting family in India. And then I spent six months in Vienna. So yeah, I guess I've moved around quite a bit.

  Ari
  I guess, actually, I have a question about that. I'm, um, because you've also done traveling with me, we've traveled together. And where’d we go? We were in Iceland. We went to Amsterdam, Amsterdam for like a day. Paris. Yeah. Oh, and like outside of Paris as well, was when the kid threw up in the car. A raucus ride from like this Parisian suburb to like the, like city center with others, like, sort of extended family I guess we were staying with there for a few days.

  Selva
  Who I've never met before or heard of before

  Ari
  Like, there was a time when we were like, back into Paris because we were like going to go stay there for a few days. They ended up putting their tiny little daughter into the trunk where she did have like a seat to, I don't know, sit into the car seat there. But she had got really bad, bad like motion sickness and she projectile vomited all over the backseat.

  Selva
  I remember when we heard it. And we heard like, oh my God, we heard it hit the sides of the seats and we just looked at each other. And we were like at least we got to Lemarais which is where we were staying, I think

  Ari
  yeah, we got here. We got some like, we got to like this random place in like, it was far away. It was far away from where we were staying. And then we had to walk. Do you remember?

  Selva
  Oh yeah

  Ari
  I sat down on the road in front of your like, four times removed, like travel agency.

  Selva
  Oh yeah! And they wouldn't, and he was like, Oh, yeah, just hold on, just hold on, I'll tell you what's happening. Just hold on. He would never tell me what was actually happening.

  Ari
  And I was just like listening to this like conversation in general, like I have no idea…

  Selva
  He didn't speak very good English; they spoke really good French and really good Tamil. So, I was like, actually interesting experience that I've never met anybody who didn't speak English, who spoke Tamil.

  Ari
  And then yeah, we're in South France. But, um, so yeah, we have, we've traveled together. But you've also, both of us have, like, spent periods of time living abroad. And I guess my first question, or the first like, topic I want to talk about is like, just the difference between those two things between, like having a settled place and…

  Selva

   

  Okay, yeah, um, so the first time I really went traveling outside of like that one school trip to London, for like, two weeks or something, where we were stuck in a bus for most of it anyways, and our teachers are watching us all the time. And so, the first time I went really traveling was that trip with you. We started off in Iceland, we went to Europe, and then you went back home. And I kept going in Europe for a little bit longer. And I had friends there who I’d met at uni, and I went to their homes. And then when I was there, I actually, my mom told me that I have this, yetanother faraway relative that I'd never heard about in the south of Germany in a really tiny village. So, I went to go see her before going to Berlin, and then going to like Prague, I think. And then I went back to Berlin, and then I left Europe, and I went to India. So that whole time, I was really just living out of my backpack, and I didn't really have a plan for it. Like I kind of just did things as they came up, and I didn't have any places booked. Um, so like, that was very, that was, I guess, it was definitely just traveling, like I was passing through places. And it was also a crazy time, because I'd never done something like that before, where I would go to a completely new country, I would know nothing there. I didn't have anything booked. I didn't know where I was going to sleep that night. But I'd have to plan that. And then there were times when like Airbnb’s were all booked. And the hotels were really expensive. And I'd be like, whatever, I'll just, I'll just not, I'll just not stay in a place. And I find like, because bars are open all the time, and they're super chill. So just sit in a bar, like for most of the night, and then when it's getting dark in there, I guess early morning, and they're closing the bars, I've just been on the street and wait until the sun came up. But I met some really interesting people this way who were kind enough to let me stay on their couches and give me breakfast and all this. Um, but I guess what was really different to actually living, when I went back this time in Europe, living there was a lot different. So even traveling was a lot different. In terms, in terms of like price, it was a lot more expensive, I found living there. Because when I travelled through, I could just be like, “I'm going here because this six-hour bus trip is for some reason only $10. Whereas, because I was working full time in Vienna, I couldn't just take trips whenever I wanted to. And that just meant you would only get it for the weekend that you aren't, you know, working or you don't have too many things going on.

  Ari
  I know you also have like a super different experience of like Europe when you were living there versus when you really traveling there right?

  Selva
  Yes, yeah. Um, I found the first time I remember coming back to Toronto and being like, wow, um, everything, like everyone's just so much more open. I really love the relaxed lifestyle. I like how I'd meet people and they may be like are in their fourth year of I don't know, like law school or something. And they'd be like, no, this isn't for me, and they just drop out and open up a cafe. There's this guy who I met who had this story. He was in law school. He didn't like it. And he had very little time until the end. But he was like, “No, this is really just not for me.” And he dropped out and he just opened up this cute little cafe where I met him. And I was like, wow, these are such great stories because I've always felt like I needed to follow these rules in life. Like I needed to study certain things by a certain time, and all of that. And it was just a lot of freedom going to Europe with just a backpack and my passport in my pocket and like walking and walking into countries.

  Ari

   

  What were some things you carried in your backback?

  Selva  
  Which were your gifts for families who were letting me stay in their place.

  Ari
  It's just so funny, because I remember you like having to like, haul your backpack. You had this like system, because you couldn't lift it up normally. I don't even know what you did that was so funny.

  Selva
  Yeah, I had like a three-part system. And then at the end of it, the one arm that I always used to pull it up, like the top, the stitching of that arm pad or whatever, like the strap was actually like falling apart. It's because I always started on that. But I won't plug MEC here, but they're great. They let me like, they gave me credit on my bag, like four years afterwards, I went back, and I was like, I used this on one trip four years ago. And they're like, Yeah, no, no worries. Here you go buy another bag for yourself.

  Ari
  That's amazing.

  Selva
  I know. They're so great.

  Ari
  I mean, yeah, we know that like they let me return that sleeping bag, bag at $50. And then I was like, too embarrassed to be like, oh, anyway, went back the next day and returned it. So yeah. They're great. I'm cutting this part off. I actually, when you were talking about your trip, I have like a question came to mind, which is, um, when you go back to India, do you feel like you're going home? Or do you feel like you're like traveling there?

  Selva
  Oh, interesting question. I feel both. Because my grandmother is there. And I was, I was raised by her for a very short period of my life, up till the age of three. And if I ever, you know, like, I always I always call her and she is a part of like, Tamil for me, and my language is a part of home, the feeling of home for me. Um, but when I do go back, it can be really weird to be, and I think this kind of plays into the whole identity talk for I think, like, immigrant children. Um, and I was just talking to my mom about this, like two days ago, where I was like, when you go to one country like here - obviously, I was raised here. And you take parts of that culture with you. But I'm still not seen as Canadian like, because obviously I'm not. I'm not like white presenting, I look Indian. And I do feel a certain part of me is Indian, but not all of it. I just, a lot of people, I think when they're introducing themselves, like the first thing, they'll be like, my name is this. I'm from here. And it's a very simple answer, like, where are you from? It's like, really simple to say I'm from Canada, or I'm from India, or whatever. But I've never found that so simple. I've never been able to just say, Oh, I'm from Canada, or I'm from, I'm from, like, India - Canadian or Canadian. Like, there's just, it's not that simple. And the feeling of it also seems to change, depending on I don't know, maybe where I am in life, or even where I physically am. Like, when I was actually in Nepal, it was very easy to say I'm Indian. And I think it was because people there it was so straightforward for them. Like, they'd be like, Oh, yeah, she's Indian. Obviously, she's Indian. She looks Indian, and she could speak the language, and she eats with her hands, just like we eat with our hands. And I could understand a lot of their culture. It was very, it was parts of it are very similar to my culture, like my Indian culture. But then, I remember going to Vienna and I was actually around Canadians, who were also interning there. And they'd be like, how are you from Canada? Like, they wouldn't get how I didn't get certain like, I don't know, idioms or certain slang words, because I'd never heard those things. We don't really, I don't feel like we don't say those things in Toronto. Maybe you say it in like, small town BC and Ottawa. Oh, I can't even like things like, Oh, I don't know. Like, um like The Goonies? The boonies? I don't know. I don't, like yeah, like they live in “the boonies”. And that apparently means like, forest towns or whatever.

  Ari
  I did not, like I've heard that word before for sure. But I don't know, maybe because we’re in Toronto?

  Selva
  Like, we are too “city” sometimes. I feel like yeah, it's, I thought that was really funny because when I was in Nepal, and I was with my friends there who were like, a lot of people who came to Nepal to work or volunteer were French. And it's not like they all knew this, like, I'd be, I asked French people did like all the French people who were there who I knew - is it a thing that people in your country come to Nepal? And they're all like, No, I just wanted to. So, like everyone I met was French, and they all individually just wanted to come to Nepal.

  Ari
  It's like, every German, like goes to Australia. Like…

  Selva
  It's like, it's you know, and I'm like, I don't know, birds, when they're bored and they're migrating, they just know they need to go to a place. Like, all the French will just know they need to go to Nepal once in their life. But I did find that there is a huge difference going from Asia to like Vienna. Vienna isn't even. It's not like just, I don't you know, when you go to Europe, and you think of like Prague or, I don't know, I find more Western European countries, like even Germany, I found people are a lot more open and a lot happier to like talk with strangers. But Vienna is like, kind of old in a sense, like they have really old culture. And I found that they weren't as kind as like other Europeans maybe are, which sounds bad. But I think it's also the, maybe the neighborhood I lived in was, it's like, it was filled with a lot of really old cultural things. And with that comes also the racism, like I think I mentioned before. Like, where I was standing on the platform, really close to where I lived to just go to work, and this woman who had been sitting next to me before, once I came and stood next to her, she like walked away from like, literally just looked at me and then walked away from me. And it was like this, obviously, I could tell like an old Austrian woman. And she waited so she can get on like the next subway car away from the car that I would be getting on. But I found things like that really common. And this comes back to identity because I remember like this one time on a night out, somebody was like, oh, how do I get to Stephansplatz, whatever. I gave them the directions. And they're like, Oh, where are you from? I said, I'm from Canada. And they're like, you don't look Canadian. And I was like, oh my god, like, here we go again. You know, it was like the little things that get to you, they add up.

  Ari
  Yeah. How did you like? I don't know, when you think back on Vienna, do you feel like you were able to, like, be in at least in part, like, comfortable there? Like you were able to, like make sort of, like an amount of a home there, like, despite these like…

  Selva
  Yeah, I think I was lucky because I had a really good group of friends. Um, and the place I worked at the UN, it's very multicultural. So, throughout the day, I'm around people from all over the world. They all speak English. But I liked, like I don't, when you're in the subway in Vienna, it's just like white. But then you go into the UN, obviously it's not. There's people from all over the world. There are people who look like me, there's people who even speak Tamil. There's just darker skin, lighter skin, like everyone's there. And all ages are there. And you can tell like everyone's come from different backgrounds. And it's a really respectful place in that way. And I would often think I'm so lucky I work here. Because if I wasn't here, where I was working in Vienna, I knew I would have struggled a lot more. Because I found it really hard to sometimes enjoy like nights out. Because often if I'm with my friends who were actually, I think all of them were white, or white presenting. And then when we would go out it was very awkward. And in some situations where maybe like a talk about race came up, because then I'd be the only one who could speak about something. And you know, you never want to be the only one in the room who can talk about this one thing and then if someone disagrees or more than one person disagrees, it's just like, a bunch of white people disagree with you.

  Ari
  Yeah, and you're like, there's no one there to like, back you up. And you're just like, yeah, either left explaining everything or in like a really horrible situation.

  Selva
  Yeah, yeah. I felt outside of my friend group. I always felt like that girl, like that girl who always has to bring who I feel like everyone thought would always be like “this is maybe an inappropriate conversation”. You know, they’re like, “what isn't an appropriate conversation?” And I feel like it's the first time where I felt genuinely exhausted to just go about my day, where I was like, oh my god, I cannot wait to like, get back to Toronto. And I think it was just Vienna in general. And I remember the feeling of it was different to like going into Vienna. I knew I was going to live there for longer. So, I think I was more cautious from the beginning. Because I feel like when you're traveling in a city, you're like, you go there for a second. And you're already, you make the decision. You're like, I like this place, or I don't.

  Ari
  Yeah, you just sort of, you're able to make those like, you don't really have time for like more than a sort of split second.

  Selva
  You're probably there for like, a week max, you know, and then you're moving on.

  Ari
  Yeah. And really, you're not really dealing with anything that would make your like, that makes up like what a real life in a place looks like there. You're probably like in a hostel or an Airbnb or hotel like us.

  Selva
  Yeah.

  Ari
  I suppose. And yeah, you're not really like, I don't know, I never, whenever I've like, if I've spent less than like two weeks somewhere, I never feel like I've actually been there.

  Selva
  Yeah, same. And thinking back to that time, I went to a lot of neighboring countries, I traveled to a lot of neighboring countries. And when I think of those places, I'm automatically fonder of those places than I was a Vienna itself. But there are areas in Vienna, where I'm, what I'm really fond of, I will always be fond of for personal reasons, for friendships and all of that. But I think as a whole, I remember I was talking to, I was talking to my friend just yesterday who I met in Vienna. And she's originally from Germany. And I was like, would you ever move, move back to Vienna? And she was like, Yeah, why not? She thought it was a really big, big city, like for her was a really big city feel and from the village that she used to live in. And I was like, it felt so opposite to me. I was like, I felt so much smaller, and I felt so much more trapped. And I always wanted to leave. I remember always wanting to plan a trip somewhere outside of Vienna. It's beautiful I think. I think it is really like whatever, like a hot build a bed of culture or whatever you want to call that. Um, but it's great for like a week visit in a nice, cute little Airbnb. But when you live there, especially if you're a person of color, a woman of color. Don't do it. Girl. I'm telling you. Don't, I guess it's really just your luck? And that's true. Anywhere that you travel.

  Ari
  It is Yeah, it really is. Did you like, what was it like for you? I know, we've talked about this in person, but like, what was it like for you to come back to Toronto after that trip and like back to like your parents’ house and like, things that you were comfortable with?

  Selva
  I'm like thinking about it. And I'm actually smiling, like the joy that it gave me to come back home. The relief that it gave me I'd never really felt that before. You know, I think the first time I went traveling, I was like, Oh, great. I'm going back to Toronto. After a year, I mean, four months traveling abroad, whatever. But this time, I was genuinely like, yes, I'm going back home. All the people I love are here. And I think that we really, I definitely do, I took for granted just getting on the subway and seeing people from all over the world. And walking down any street and being able to find cuisines from all over the world. And going into, I don't know, like any little park and you can talk to people and more people will join and the people that join like everyone is just from everywhere. And we all have a story, and we all are very friendly, and we like to talk to each other. And I find that really surprising because when I talk to certain people about Toronto, they think that Torontonians are really like, mean and not very open. But I've never felt that way living here. I've always been able to literally stand in line at like a Timmies or like Starbucks or something and start talking to the person next to me, and we end up having like, a moderately deep conversation, you know?

  Ari
  Yeah, no, I feel that way too. I've had like, not like, I guess like a similar experience of like, the more places that I've been in and lived in, the more I'm like grateful that I live in Toronto and that's like my own. Yeah, I feel like it is sort of [laughs] this was an ad for MEC and now it’s just an ad for Toronto. Yeah. And obviously it has like many faults and like,

  Selva
  Oh, for sure. I grew up here

  Ari
  Like Canada in general. But um, yes. Like it is, I think one of the, like something that I experienced, because I went to school for a very brief time in France. And the swastika is just everywhere. I was just like, oh my god, like, general feelings/realities of being like, quite unsafe, just like, if you're not a man. Um, and I remember coming back from there, and coming here and being like, feeling the freedom of just being able to like to walk at night.

  Selva
  Yeah, for sure. I think I remember last year leaving and thinking, maybe I'll find the place that I want to settle in. You know, like my parents moved here. And now it's my turn to figure out where I want to, I want to settle and raise children. But I remember thinking after, like, I think towards the end of Vienna, and definitely after, coming back here, thinking, maybe I want to go away for work kind of situations in the near future. But maybe Toronto is the place where I'll settle because of all the places I've been, it seems like one of the nicest ones to raise children in. Yeah. And I never really felt like there are a lot of incidences growing up where I felt unsafe or not very respected or not very accepted by Canadians. But I can say that as an, like I said, as an adult, it makes me feel almost uncomfortable saying I'm adult, but traveling as an adult, and living in another country and feeling so just so genuinely exhausted there all the time. Because people just don't know about things that I think maybe they should know about. Yeah, I found that, I found that to be, I guess, eye opening in a way. Yeah. And when I was there, I felt like, I mean, it was funny, though, even though I was there, and I wanted to come back here, I kept still struggling to say where I'm from, you know. Like this is so, when people ask me, where are you from? I always say, I was born in India. And then I moved to Toronto, I moved to Toronto, like at eight, nine and then that's, so I'm like, raised... It's difficult.

  Like I never know what to say. And I sometimes do it based on who's, who am I talking to? So, if it's a Canadian, I'm going to be like, I'm Canadian. I'm from Toronto. Hey, what's up. But when I was in Nepal, I was very much like, I'm from India, like I was born in India, because people actually trusted me more when I would say that. But I know that growing up, I found it really difficult. Yeah. And I think it's because when you're younger, you just want to belong to something. Yeah. But constantly feeling like you don't belong, because, well, obviously, I don't. You know, like media representations, what women should look like. And even in India, there's often, I went, when I went this time, I went to a mall, and all the photos in the mall, were like white girls, and I couldn't understand it because I was like, I'm literally in India. Girls don't look like this in India. We're all obviously a lot darker skinned. And people also in movies like, I was arguing with my father about this the other day where I find it sometimes very difficult to watch some movies because the girls never look like me, like they're never dark skinned. And I didn't understand because movies are supposed to be celebrating culture as well. And my father's someone who also really celebrates our culture and I always felt a little bit removed from it because our culture it can be so colorist and so bad in the way that I think they view darker skinned woman.

  There's this really good Instagram influencer that I started following, like last year because I really just needed more variety on my Instagram feed. But she is somewhat Canadian. She's Sr Lankan Tamil and she just celebrates dark skin in a way I've never heard of before. Like she gets excited about getting tanned. You know what I mean? Like even now and I think sometimes about getting tanned or wearing like bright, brightly colored clothing, I think, oh my skin's going to look darker and I've grown enough to feel like I'm still beautiful and all of that. But there is a very small twinge in me that goes like, oh, it's going to look darker, you know, because my whole life, I've been told that's not a good thing. So that's, it's, I can really appreciate also moving here because I think being in Canada has allowed me in a way to develop freedom in thought in a way that I wouldn't have if I, if I'm, this is also maybe an unkind to say, but I feel like I wouldn't be as free in my thoughts if I'd been raised in India, because I actually talked with my cousins about this. Who were taught, I thought there was a lot of like, internalized like sexism on their part. And they thought I was just like too open and too free in some ways. It's just the society that you're raised in. And I have a certain extent of that too, like, with my skin color and growing up feeling like, Oh, darn, like, it won't just wash off. You know, things like that. But it's like, I don't know, these are all just difficult lines to walk. And I think it's important to have these conversations, so at least we can force ourselves to be uncomfortable so maybe the future generations don't have to be.

  Ari
  Yeah, yeah, no, it's like, it's one of those things where if you don't talk about, like many things, you don't talk about them. They become bigger; you know. Yeah. Less than. Like, head on in, like, productive and good way.

  Selva
  It's, I think, like, identity, I was, I was talking with my mom about this, too. Where if I had a child, and let's say, my partner, or whatever, I don't know, like, my sperm donor is a white person. And my child would be like, half Indian, and then half white. That'd be like, how would that be for her? And she, she was like, oh, it'd be fine. But I was thinking, it's interesting, because her experiences like an adult who moved to the country is so different to my experience as like a child who grew up in this country.

  Ari
  What were the differences?

  Selva
  Because I, I felt like when we, like there's, I can appreciate certain humor about like race, but not all of it. I find, I find some of it can be a little offensive. But my mom can, like she can't really, she doesn't really notice the offensive things sometimes. Like it's like normal, it's something that she can enjoy. Yeah. Um, but I think, I don't know, I wonder if it's, I think a part of it is too, when you’re a kid, when you're like 16, you're putting so much pressure on yourself, right. And there's a lot of weight and heavy feelings that come with that. And so, I feel like race and dark skin and the way your body should look and all of that has all these heavy feelings that you maybe grow out of, and maybe my mom had already grown out of that when she'd come here.

  Ari
  Yeah, but for you, it was like, in part connected to Canada.

  Selva
  Yeah. And I felt like, in my, in our culture, we don't really talk about like, thinning, or like appearances and things like that. Like, obviously, you shouldn't be too thin, and you shouldn't be too dark skinned. But they don't really talk about anything outside of that, you know. But I know here, it's very common for young girls to like, sit in a circle and kind of just talk about things that they're feeling. And I always feel really uncomfortable, because it felt like I couldn't partake in this conversation. It felt like I was doing something wrong. Because the way I'm raised at home, the values are different to the way that obviously my friends are raised. Right? So that was really difficult. And I think it's harder because you're younger, right? You're, a lot of the way that you might think, is like media, but also the way your parents are talking with you. I don't know. Sorry.

  Ari
  What do you feel like? I don't know, like in terms of like value systems and like, all of that? How do you feel like you, I don't know, like, where would you like see yourself right now? Like, what sort of, what have you like, have you been able to like pick and choose or like, does that make sense?

  Selva
  Yeah, I guess so. Kind of, because, um, I don't know, I think there's a lot that has to do with marriage and children and the way life needs to be lived. Like there's a rulebook for life or something. And I think the way I think about things now is maybe not even the Canadian way. I don't know the way that certain Canadians are, because I was talking to my friends last year, who are Canadian who felt like they had a lot of pressure on them to, you know, like almost perform life in a way that's acceptable for their parents. And maybe pressure that like men might feel for having to build a life and have a family and all of that. And women might feel that too. I don't know, I think where I am right now is kind of like, I don't know, do whatever you want. Be alive, do things and then die. Doesn't need to be so dramatic, it could just be super simple. It is an insane amount of pressure to put on children. I was talking to another person, like last month, who was a Tamil as well. And she was talking about how she really struggled being at home and growing up at home and how as she grows, her parents grow as well. And as her values change, her parents learn to accept that as well. But it's always going to be this like difficult path. Because people are raised in such different ways. But you kind of have to set boundaries, which is like the thing that we don't talk about in our culture, like boundary setting is not a normal thing.

  Anyways, the thing that she said that I really, I thought was nice to hear was, she was talking about how it's just an unnecessary amount of pressure to put on children to be told that you're going to be no take care of one day, like it's just a vague expectation or a culture that when you grow up, you’re going to take care of the adults one day. But you're raised with that expectation. And I think that's so unnecessary. And I don't want to do that to my children. And I feel like a lot of the way that I live, reflects that. Where I feel like, I used to feel quite bad for thinking I don't want to get married, maybe I want to have children still though, or I want to have my own home one day. I like really simple, normal things, but I'd feel really guilty about it. But now I'm kind of, I still feel guilty about it some days, but there's therapy, and I feel a lot better. I think it's like important to also, I find, remember that there are cultural differences. And there's like, things that you feel and the pressure that you feel because of that. But everyone kind of has their own thing because parents are all different. And they all have different expectations. And everyone's battling those expectations. So, we all just need to take a deep breath and be like things work out. Let's all calm down a little bit. Do what we want. Goddamn it.

  Ari
  Thank you so much for having a chat with me on this nice Saturday afternoon quarantine.

  Selva
  Thank you for having me. And yeah, this, this is an interesting topic. And I'm glad to be here talking about it Ari. Thank you.

  Mica
  Thank you to our guests, Kashi Syal and Selva Lakshmi. It's been really great to hear your stories and hopefully we can have you all on the show again. Thank you to my co-host Ari, and thanks to Braden and Day for helping produce the show. You can find us on Twitter @HHpodcasting and Instagram @HartHouseStories. We are here every Saturday at 7am on CiUT at 89.5 fm. And we post all our episodes under Hart House Stories on SoundCloud. Our intro outro music was composed by Dan Driscoll, and I'm Mica signing off as your host for today. Thank you for listening and see you next week. 

When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.

Ansel Adams

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